What ails the Flames?

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

What do you do then when the worst defensive line on the team (Janko line) is getting absolutely crushed by opponents each and every shift? There's a reason why they see a lot of offensive zone starts. They are getting protected because they're a young line and they scored on way more than they produce.

Any coach worth his salt would understand this concept. You start the Backlund line in the defensive zone a lot because they've proven that they can defend well against the opposition's top lines and transition the play back to the offensive zone.

A Bennett Janko Tkachuk line has never existed. All three of them have had a career calling card of being offensively minded without being defensive liabilities.

As it stands, Janko and Bennett are asked to play defense first, and Tkachuk is on the shutdown line. Never asked to play to their strengths, and I worry that it's hurting their development.

I would just like to see a classic Backlund led shutdown third line, and let the second line roll out with 30 shots a night, and let them be a wrecking ball.

Why not?

We may be upset at the lack of production from the bottom six, but perhaps our shutdown line shouldn't carry so much of the offense in the first place.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

A Bennett Janko Tkachuk line has never existed. All three of them have had a career calling card of being offensively minded without being defensive liabilities.

As it stands, Janko and Bennett are asked to play defense first, and Tkachuk is on the shutdown line. Never asked to play to their strengths, and I worry that it's hurting their development.

I would just like to see a classic Backlund led shutdown third line, and let the second line roll out with 30 shots a night, and let them be a wrecking ball.

Why not?

We may be upset at the lack of production from the bottom six, but perhaps our shutdown line shouldn't carry so much of the offense in the first place.

What does that look like? Frolik-Backlund-Shore, I guess.

But what makes you think Jankowski has better offence than Backlund?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I didn't compare just Monahan and Draisaitl. I compared Draisaitl to another winger, Gaudreau (who has more points and is in the top 10) as well. Plus Monahan has more goals than Draisaitl. Draisaitl is good, but he also scored the majority of his points beside McDavid. Even if you compare him to Tarasenko, he makes a million more.

Chia screwed up by signing McDavid first. He needed to drive a harder bargain with Draisaitl using the looming McDavid negotiation as a bargaining point.

Draisaitl isn't the worst contract they have, but it's too high, for an RFA that had one good year on McDavid's wing. I bet if they ever tried to move him they'd need to retain some salary.

Yeah well we'll definitely have to agree to disagree because I think very highly of Draisaitl and I hate that the Oilers have him. He could easily command a bounty if he were to be traded and if we had a chance to grab him instead of Benentt, we'd be a perennial playoff team.

He had 1 good year and an exceptional year. The whole McDavid's winger thing is overstated. He wins a lot of faceoffs and typically centers his own line and is the only reason why Mike Cammalleri was going a ppg for a dozen or so games when they were together.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What does that look like? Frolik-Backlund-Shore, I guess.

But what makes you think Jankowski has better offence than Backlund?

I suppose just his time is Providence and Stockton. He was asked to play a different role in Calgary, but that doesn't really play to his strengths. He was always shoot first, but now doesn't shoot at all. Isn't shoot first exactly what the team needs?

Tkachuk and Bennett in the corners forechecking and Janko as a triggerman should be a no brainer based on their track record, but it's as if the coaching staff isn't interested in exploiting what got these players to the show in the first place.

I think the answer to the teams offensive woes is in the room.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

A Bennett Janko Tkachuk line has never existed. All three of them have had a career calling card of being offensively minded without being defensive liabilities.

As it stands, Janko and Bennett are asked to play defense first, and Tkachuk is on the shutdown line. Never asked to play to their strengths, and I worry that it's hurting their development.

I would just like to see a classic Backlund led shutdown third line, and let the second line roll out with 30 shots a night, and let them be a wrecking ball.

Why not?

We may be upset at the lack of production from the bottom six, but perhaps our shutdown line shouldn't carry so much of the offense in the first place.

What has Jankowski and Bennett done together in the last couple months that shows you they could be a wrecking ball? They're having a hard time matching up against other 3rd lines right now. I think I saw a stat that showed that the 4th line was actually outscoring them in 2018.

If Jankowski's line played well enough to deserve more minutes, then maybe they would be this team's second line and the opposition would feel the need to use their top 4 defensemen against them. But that's not happening right now, they haven't even shown the ability to dominate 3rd pairing defensemen.

Backlund's line is actually a handful right now and they're forcing the opposition's top lines to be in defensive zone more often. That's why the 2nd line is playing a lot more minutes, because they're defending well and producing at the same time.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Yeah well we'll definitely have to agree to disagree because I think very highly of Draisaitl and I hate that the Oilers have him. He could easily command a bounty if he were to be traded and if we had a chance to grab him instead of Benentt, we'd be a perennial playoff team.

He had 1 good year and an exceptional year. The whole McDavid's winger thing is overstated. He wins a lot of faceoffs and typically centers his own line and is the only reason why Mike Cammalleri was going a ppg for a dozen or so games when they were together.

This year he has played 63.5% on McDavid's line (with Maroon or Lucic). He's centred a line about 35% of the time. The fact he takes faceoffs for McDavid doesn't make him the centre on that line. And Lucic was only on his line for 25% of the time (and only 9.5% with Draisaitl as centre).

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2017-2018:R

Last year, the one after which they signed the contract, he played on McDavid's line over 80% of the time.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2016-2017:R

[Harry Lime]

I think that the point I'm trying to make is utilization. The only player with finish on the second line is Tkachuk. Backlund and Frolik are great at what they do, but putting up points is not their forte.

The only time we have seen flashes from Bennett this year is when he was put in an offensive role, otherwise he has been a non factor.

Janko looked great before he learned the system.

All three of them are not suited to be Backlund Jr. All of them seem to be asked to be just that.

Should we not clone the first line, and not the second line, if scoring consistently is our Achilles heel? Especially if the skill set of these three is more suited to the role?

It's great that Backlunds line is a handful, but it will never produce offense at the rate that the team needs, so why is there never an adjustment to fix the problem? If Jankowski was asked to play like Monahan, he would put more pressure on the opposition in the offensive zone, and there would not be such a feeling of being overwhelmed.

Anyway, probably too late to try this year.

[Anduril]

On the quick topic of goaltending, the Flames goaltending has been middle of the pack so far between the highs of Smith and the rough patches of our young backups.

We've lamented in the past with the fall of Hiller and Elliot that this would be a playoff team if we had league average goaltending. For the most part we've got it even though it doesn't feel like it sone games especially as of late.

https://twitter.com/CrowdScoutSprts/...82540659433474

@CrowdScoutSprts: maybe a little more intuitive view, order and ranked by team points/game
average goaltending would have been less harmful to TB than the other top teams
if Murray can come back healthy & leave some struggles behind him, PIT is formidable again https://t.co/DU0ZznSNJh

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I think that the point I'm trying to make is utilization. The only player with finish on the second line is Tkachuk. Backlund and Frolik are great at what they do, but putting up points is not their forte.

The only time we have seen flashes from Bennett this year is when he was put in an offensive role, otherwise he has been a non factor.

Janko looked great before he learned the system.

All three of them are not suited to be Backlund Jr. All of them seem to be asked to be just that.

Should we not clone the first line, and not the second line, if scoring consistently is our Achilles heel? Especially if the skill set of these three is more suited to the role?

It's great that Backlunds line is a handful, but it will never produce offense at the rate that the team needs, so why is there never an adjustment to fix the problem? If Jankowski was asked to play like Monahan, he would put more pressure on the opposition in the offensive zone, and there would not be such a feeling of being overwhelmed.

Anyway, probably too late to try this year.

This right here is what bugs me so much about Gulutzan. Players come here out of the gates hot, but once they're exposed for a longer period start to develop weird habits, go on scoring droughts and lose confidence.
Bennett. Jankowski. Hathaway. Brouwer. Brodie. Even Ryan Lomberg somehow lost his motor after a few practices under guly.
Has a player ever become "better" under Gulutzan? Scoring across the NHL is up quite a bit, so I don't think this year from Johnny money and Ferland counts, and last year under gulutzan they had bad seasons.

[madmike]

Even since Smith's injury, I don't think the goaltending has cost the team more than 3 points. It might have cost them a point in Pittsburgh (although they still had their chances) and MAYBE 2 against LV (although that's questionable). Their biggest issue is a lack of scoring, which has been a problem almost all year long. They generate plenty of chances, but they cannot consistently find the back of the net.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This year he has played 63.5% on McDavid's line (with Maroon or Lucic). He's centred a line about 35% of the time. The fact he takes faceoffs for McDavid doesn't make him the centre on that line. And Lucic was only on his line for 25% of the time (and only 9.5% with Draisaitl as centre).

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2017-2018:R

Last year, the one after which they signed the contract, he played on McDavid's line over 80% of the time.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2016-2017:R

In the games I've seen from him this year, he has centered the majority of the game on his own his line and driving play. He's young, signed to an 8 year deal instead of a 6 year or 7 year deal and he's nearly a ppg again. He has the ability to become a dominant center in this league. Playing with or without McDavid doesn't change that for me.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

This right here is what bugs me so much about Gulutzan. Players come here out of the gates hot, but once they're exposed for a longer period start to develop weird habits, go on scoring droughts and lose confidence.
Bennett. Jankowski. Hathaway. Brouwer. Brodie. Even Ryan Lomberg somehow lost his motor after a few practices under guly.
Has a player ever become "better" under Gulutzan? Scoring across the NHL is up quite a bit, so I don't think this year from Johnny money and Ferland counts, and last year under gulutzan they had bad seasons.

So we ignore any data that does not match the premise?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I think that the point I'm trying to make is utilization. The only player with finish on the second line is Tkachuk. Backlund and Frolik are great at what they do, but putting up points is not their forte.

The only time we have seen flashes from Bennett this year is when he was put in an offensive role, otherwise he has been a non factor.

Janko looked great before he learned the system.

All three of them are not suited to be Backlund Jr. All of them seem to be asked to be just that.

Should we not clone the first line, and not the second line, if scoring consistently is our Achilles heel? Especially if the skill set of these three is more suited to the role?

It's great that Backlunds line is a handful, but it will never produce offense at the rate that the team needs, so why is there never an adjustment to fix the problem? If Jankowski was asked to play like Monahan, he would put more pressure on the opposition in the offensive zone, and there would not be such a feeling of being overwhelmed.

Anyway, probably too late to try this year.

All this roles talk is meaningless. The coaches aren't asking guys not to produce. Does anyone honestly believe that if they just slapped a 2nd line label onto the 3rd line that it changes anything at all? Like what exactly changes?

The 3rd line goes out and tries to produce offense whenever they're on the ice anyway. They're not asked to do anything special here. They're just incapable right now because they're simply not good enough. The 2nd line does produce and they defend very well against the opposition's top lines to boot, that's why they're the default 2nd line.

The honest truth is that if the Jankowski line was better and became more of a handful to deal with, then other teams would be forced to throw better defenders out there against them. Teams don't do that though because they're a non-threat right now. They don't spend a lot of time cycling or creating chances, they don't tire out defenders, they don't force the opposition to respect them. That's why they're not a 2nd line right now.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by madmike

Even since Smith's injury, I don't think the goaltending has cost the team more than 3 points. It might have cost them a point in Pittsburgh (although they still had their chances) and MAYBE 2 against LV (although that's questionable). Their biggest issue is a lack of scoring, which has been a problem almost all year long. They generate plenty of chances, but they cannot consistently find the back of the net.

Agree regarding lack of scoring. Smith injury may be final nail though, because those 3 points (And I'd argue at least 1 more) put Flames into playoff spot (or tie) right now.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by madmike

Even since Smith's injury, I don't think the goaltending has cost the team more than 3 points. It might have cost them a point in Pittsburgh (although they still had their chances) and MAYBE 2 against LV (although that's questionable). Their biggest issue is a lack of scoring, which has been a problem almost all year long. They generate plenty of chances, but they cannot consistently find the back of the net.

Goaltending definitely cost them the NYR game and probably the Dallas and Pitssburgh game. Too many weak goals that shouldn't go in on a legitimate starter. If your goaltender is having such a hard time with shots from 100-200 feet out, you're not NHL material.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

All this roles talk is meaningless. The coaches aren't asking guys not to produce. Does anyone honestly believe that if they just slapped a 2nd line label onto the 3rd line that it changes anything at all? Like what exactly changes?

The 3rd line goes out and tries to produce offense whenever they're on the ice anyway. They're not asked to do anything special here. They're just incapable right now because they're simply not good enough. The 2nd line does produce and they defend very well against the opposition's top lines to boot, that's why they're the default 2nd line.

The honest truth is that if the Jankowski line was better and became more of a handful to deal with, then other teams would be forced to throw better defenders out there against them. Teams don't do that though because they're a non-threat right now. They don't spend a lot of time cycling or creating chances, they don't tire out defenders, they don't force the opposition to respect them. That's why they're not a 2nd line right now.

I agree with the idea of Tkachuk—Janko-Bennett. That makes the line better and a handful to deal with.

Backlund and Frolik can play with any winger and make them better, and against tough opposition. Why not Brouwer?
Neither Jankowski nor Bennett seem to be ready to put a line on their back but looked good with the few games of healthy Jagr. Give them a good winger that is always a factor and see what happens.

Johnny - Monahan - Ferland
Brouwer - Backlund - Frolik
Tkachuk - Jankowski - Bennett
4th line

I wish Gulutzan tried this the minute they knew Jagr was out of their plans.

[madmike]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Goaltending definitely cost them the NYR game and probably the Dallas and Pitssburgh game. Too many weak goals that shouldn't go in on a legitimate starter. If your goaltender is having such a hard time with shots from 100-200 feet out, you're not NHL material.

I don't know. They only scored 1 goal in the Rangers game. In my opinion you don't deserve to win games scoring 1 goal.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by madmike

I don't know. They only scored 1 goal in the Rangers game. In my opinion you don't deserve to win games scoring 1 goal.

I was at that game, we dominated the Rangers in almost every facet. Players had no confidence in the goaltending after the weak 2nd goal so everyone just went in to rope a dope mode. Would never have happened if Mike Smith was in net. He keeps the team calm and composed. Not to mention he actually can play the puck unlike Gillies who looks like he just learned how to hold a stick a week ago. At minimum we could've got the game to OT and collected at least a point and with Monahan and Gaudreau out there, probably would've been 2 points.

[madmike]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I was at that game, we dominated the Rangers in almost every facet. Players had no confidence in the goaltending after the weak 2nd goal so everyone just went in to rope a dope mode. Would never have happened if Mike Smith was in net. He keeps the team calm and composed. Not to mention he actually can play the puck unlike Gillies who looks like he just learned how to hold a stick a week ago. At minimum we could've got the game to OT and collected at least a point and with Monahan and Gaudreau out there, probably would've been 2 points.

Part of the issue for me is Smith is an older goalie and the Flames have gotten a good number of games out of him. It was unrealistic to expect him to start 70+ games. The Flames need to come up with a long-term solution in goal and fill in other weak spots.

Again - I don't see this team as being on the brink of contending for a Cup, which should be the goal. It has multiple holes to fill and some of them aren't easy fixes. The Flames need to do a better job of drafting and developing talent and stop trading away picks for temporary fixes.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by madmike

Part of the issue for me is Smith is an older goalie and the Flames have gotten a good number of games out of him. It was unrealistic to expect him to start 70+ games. The Flames need to come up with a long-term solution in goal and fill in other weak spots.

Again - I don't see this team as being on the brink of contending for a Cup, which should be the goal. It has multiple holes to fill and some of them aren't easy fixes. The Flames need to do a better job of drafting and developing talent and stop trading away picks for temporary fixes.

I definitely agree with you that we're not going to contend with this currently flawed roster. The holes are glaring and with Smith's injury history, a better contingency plan then Lack or 2 rookie goaltenders should've been addressed.

Amateur skating has actually done a pretty good job for the most part considering the few picks they've had to play with. But speed and skill needs to be become the primary objective here. There's too many grinders on this team and not enough finishers. That's why we're one of the top teams in shots taken and shots on goal, yet one of the lowest in goals scored per game.