Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Unbiased (honestly biased against us) media thought he was the 9th best Dman in the league last season. 30 team league.

And Phaneuf was nominated for the Norris even though he was a trainwreck in his own end. Just shows most hockey reporters hardly watch any out-of-market games.

Hamilton did not make the North America World Cup team, and I'll be surprised if he's ever selected for a Team Canada World Cup or Olympic team. I'll take the assessment of NHL GMs and coaches over those of the media.

[dino7c]

Any measurable stat would show him as a #1 dman...He is 24 years old and obviously not perfect. You just want to ignore it and claim his is bad in his own end. (despite being a possession monster and a plus player on a team with a poor differential)

You obviously just want to go with the eye test so there is no point in debating it further

He should have been on the under 23 team...worse players made it and lets not forget Chia was in charge. Hamilton has also made major steps since that tournament.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And Phaneuf was nominated for the Norris even though he was a trainwreck in his own end. Just shows most hockey reporters hardly watch any out-of-market games.

Hamilton did not make the North America World Cup team, and I'll be surprised if he's ever selected for a Team Canada World Cup or Olympic team. I'll take the assessment of NHL GMs and coaches over those of the media.

I think he has shown glimpses where he has taken over games like a #1 dman would. He has lots of time to develop with the guidance and steadiness of Giordano to help him out.

I don't like the trade from an asset management perspective, but that one is somewhat salvageable.

[Braden]

Did anyone hear the interview with Rob Kerr (I think it was) with Treliving immediately after the Nick shore deal, basically after the deadline hit? I've never heard him sound so lost, he was stuttering so much almost struggling to put complete sentences together, and still talked about the uncertainty of Smith. (Can't find the interview now) I got real bad vibes from it, those looking to be true now. Can't help but think there was pressure on him to make a deal, pretty much mentioned by Conroy stating to Ryan Leslie on flames tv about brad making a hockey trade, and hoping he can get one done. It's easy to see the cost of everything was high, but the fact we couldn't pay high prices is a problem he created.

[browntrout]

I cant believe we could potentially lose a top 5 pick, and 2 2nd rounds picks for travis harmonic...I feel sick

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by browntrout

I cant believe we could potentially lose a top 5 pick, and 2 2nd rounds picks for travis harmonic...I feel sick

Don't get too sick...the odds are quite low its a top 3 pick like 2.5% should they hold this position

Impossible to be 4 or 5

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Braden

Did anyone hear the interview with Rob Kerr (I think it was) with Treliving immediately after the Nick shore deal, basically after the deadline hit? I've never heard him sound so lost, he was stuttering so much almost struggling to put complete sentences together, and still talked about the uncertainty of Smith. (Can't find the interview now) I got real bad vibes from it, those looking to be true now. Can't help but think there was pressure on him to make a deal, pretty much mentioned by Conroy stating to Ryan Leslie on flames tv about brad making a hockey trade, and hoping he can get one done. It's easy to see the cost of everything was high, but the fact we couldn't pay high prices is a problem he created.

He was extremely sleep deprived, you could see it on the interview with Tim and Sid on Sportsnet.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

Top 2 lines are probably top 10 in the league as a pair, the 3M line has been really unlucky with results but they still drive play so a bounce back year next season is likely

Defense isn't as good as expected, many including myself thought it was in the argument for best top 4 in the league but without Brodie returning to form of a few years ago it's an excellent top pairing, one of the best, with a better than average second pair and middling 3rd

Goaltending has been better than expected definitely

I don't see the jets comparison, they had a lot of young high end offensive prospects improving or coming in and right now outside Bennett the flames don't, and while I don't think he's a bust his ceiling is dropping pretty quickly

Biggest issue is depth though, the bottom 6 and bottom pairing need improvements this summer, either internally or through FA

This is where treveling needs to find ways to improve both to make the next step, I know there are some defenseman that could make the jump from Stockton so I think that can be internal, but through some good external bottom 6 additions is where the difference next year come from imo

The stuff above posted by Enoch root is illuminating in how many non producers there are in the depth players

Cant just have a 3rd line anymore that treads water, the good teams even have 4th lines that chip in offense now

Don't see the flames being a huge player this summer in terms of big moves, but I would expect a big overhaul in depth moves. Status quo isn't enough

What? Thats not what Gulutzan supporters are telling me....hes a great coach who just has a bad team.

He just doing the best he can with what he has!

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Locke

What? Thats not what Gulutzan supporters are telling me....hes a great coach who just has a bad team.

He just doing the best he can with what he has!

Is there one person on CP that doesn't think GG should NOT be fired should the Flames miss the playoffs? honestly? not sure.

Flames have major issues in the bottom six and forward depth overall. Still they should have 5+ more wins (I mean they blew at least that many in ridiculous fashion) that is on the coach.

To take a major step though the coach and roster both have to be addressed...its not one or the other.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Is there one person on CP that doesn't think GG should NOT be fired should the Flames miss the playoffs? honestly? not sure.

Flames have major issues in the bottom six and forward depth overall. Still they should have 5+ more wins (I mean they blew at least that many in ridiculous fashion) that is on the coach.

To take a major step though the coach and roster both have to be addressed...its not one or the other.

Of course. Rosters are not etched in granite, they always have to be addressed and improved if possible.

The fact of the matter remains however that the coach is supposed to get you those marginal points. To take the assets he has and maximize their strengths.

The ones where two relatively even teams go head to head and you need just a slight edge to walk away with the win.

We are far too often the team leaving the building with the loss.

Because they just couldnt win it 'The Gulutzan Way!'

[Flamenspiel]

I don't agree with the re-evaluation of the Hamilton trade, and Barzal was not the Flames pick, he was LAs pick. This Kurvers like deal for Hamonic is my main sore spot with Treliving. If the pick ends up being a 1st overall(and that could happen because the Flames could fall pretty far and the odds now are reasonable for moving up) Treliving will not be able to live that down and he will always be remembered for it.

No way he pressured to make that deal, not by management, but he might have been concerned about Edmonton getting Hamonic if he does not throw in the Lottery pick.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I don't agree with the re-evaluation of the Hamilton trade, and Barzal was not the Flames pick, he was LAs pick. This Kurvers like deal for Hamonic is my main sore spot with Treliving. If the pick ends up being a 1st overall(and that could happen because the Flames could fall pretty far and the odds now are reasonable for moving up) Treliving will not be able to live that down and he will always be remembered for it.

No way he pressured to make that deal, not by management, but he might have been concerned about Edmonton getting Hamonic if he does not throw in the Lottery pick.

Why is that a concern? They have one of the best players in the World (according to themselves) and they're still terrible.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dino7c

To take a major step though the coach and roster both have to be addressed...its not one or the other.

This is the major point. I think folks have confused some of the arguments being made. Someone the other day asked why I think the Flames should keep GG. That's not my position. My position is that just changing the coach isn't enough and that there are more serious issues with the roster beyond the HC.

So the amount of discussion about the coach, and absence of blame being placed on the team, and their best players, is what I disagree with

Take a look at the stats of the teams' best players during these more critical games. They are awful.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by blender

Still OK to debate their relative value though. They are linked by that trade, regardless of the outcome, and it is a worthwhile debate as to the value of position players in today's NHL

If you want to debate relative value then you have to debate the value of the picks against Hamilton. You can't just cherry pick a player in hindsight. First you don't know if the Flames would have selected him to begin with and second you have absolutely no idea if the player would even be at 15 before the draft started.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

This is the major point. I think folks have confused some of the arguments being made. Someone the other day asked why I think the Flames should keep GG. That's not my position. My position is that just changing the coach isn't enough and that there are more serious issues with the roster beyond the HC.

So the amount of discussion about the coach, and absence of blame being placed on the team, and their best players, is what I disagree with

Take a look at the stats of the teams' best players during these more critical games. They are awful.

That's my stance also. I have noticed a bunch of posters that think replacing coach will fix everything. If flames go that route I think they will be wasting another year.

As far as I'm concerned the flames have a 3 year window with most of the core. 2 guys I could see declining quite a bit after that while still eating quite a bit of cap. The other core member I'm not sure will re-sign, so you need to look at trading him the summer of final year. I would also add that future picks in coming drafts will not be helping this core group in the next 3 years unless traded for immediate help. That's not an avenue that flames management should explore.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

That's my stance also. I have noticed a bunch of posters that think replacing coach will fix everything. If flames go that route I think they will be wasting another year.

Really? What has Gulutzan accomplished in his two seasons here outside of mediocrity? IMO the last two seasons have largely been wasted. Bringing him back would pretty well ensure that next season is wasted which is why you can't bring him back. The roster isn't perfect but what roster is? The issue is that the team has not improved in back to back seasons under the coach. There is nothing more that needs to be learned about Gulutzan and this roster that we don't know and you can't fire the roster. Sure some changes can be made on the roster but in this day and age you are lucky to make two significant changes per offseason to your roster. A new approach with a different coach may be able to take this roster to the next level as it's clearly not going to happen with the current coach.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Really? What has Gulutzan accomplished in his two seasons here outside of mediocrity? IMO the last two seasons have largely been wasted. Bringing him back would pretty well ensure that next season is wasted which is why you can't bring him back.

My writing skills are horrid . I'm saying along with letting coach go , flames need to make some big changes on roster. Just firing coach is not the answer.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Hackey

If you want to debate relative value then you have to debate the value of the picks against Hamilton. You can't just cherry pick a player in hindsight. First you don't know if the Flames would have selected him to begin with and second you have absolutely no idea if the player would even be at 15 before the draft started.

I understand that. I meant that it is still OK to debate the value of Hamilton vs Barzal despite the fact that it was not an either/or scenario.

I just find the debate about their value to be interesting and the fact that Hamilton was traded in the same draft Barzal was picked in is an easy entry point to the debate.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I think he has shown glimpses where he has taken over games like a #1 dman would. He has lots of time to develop with the guidance and steadiness of Giordano to help him out.

I don't like the trade from an asset management perspective, but that one is somewhat salvageable.

I think that's literally the first time a Flames fan or anyone in the hockey world has described the Hamilton trade as "somewhat salvageable" for Calgary.

[dino7c]

Lets put it this way...in franchise history how many first round picks have turned into a better player than Dougie Hamilton?

Very short list in 37 years...Big Al, Roberts, one or two recent ones that are debatable

On that note there are also very few better than Hamonic even