Should the Flames fire Gulutzan?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Coles notes? Readers Digest? Encyclopedia Britannica? GIF of something getting crushed by a press? Is there any other way to read this? Character limit of 10,000 exceeded.

Spoiler!

[CroFlames]

I was a detractor. I felt he needed to be fired in order to save the season. I didn't think he had what it took to inspire the players to take their game to the next level.

After Stickgate I was intrigued. When I saw him lose his #### at refs vs Anaheim and the players respond with a huge physical game, I thought to myself that maybe, just MAYBE, Gulutzan can turn this around and save the season.

Call it superficial, but I've visually seen more fight out of him and the players have responded. No more of those embarrassing and aggravating performances where the entire team is sleeping until the 50 minute mark.

[Robbob]

I think he gets more flack then deserved based on his presence behind the bench. I know he interacts a lot more than what you see on TV. At homes I can see him constantly talking to refs or interacting with players.

Recently they put together a bunch of clips from the TB game of him on the bench. Watching the game from the normal feed, you never would have seen those. If you are at the game watch him during the TV timeouts.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Also, what has this become, the "I told you so" thread?

Come on everyone, can't we all get along? This team looks damn fantastic these days. Isn't that enough to bring us all together.

Why is being right more important than the team winning?

Being on the patience side of things, most of us try to "rationally" (I put that in quotations because there are some bad apples on this side as well) discuss viewpoints on games, the positives and negatives, what we can improve, etc., anything to facilitate good hockey conversation.

But instead, we have every naysayer BOMBARD every single thread with the same comment about firing GG. Everyone is entitled to their viewpoints but when you have every thread filled with FIRE GG, FIRE X PERSON TO THE MOON, TRADE MONAHAN (which was probably one of the most bizarre one I saw), along with childish Glue Gun name calling, it gets absolutely insufferable. It got to the point where there is no point coming on here because you can't have a meaningful conversation. it's like we're in a facebook comment thread.

Even the eternal optimist thread was an opportunity inject some positivity and meaningful discussions around here, but then you still have the naysayers trolling on there.

A lot of us here are here for meaningful hockey conversation and debates, a place to learn the opposite view points through facts, stats, etc. When majority of opposing arguments are filled with garbage to fill their narrative, with no justification, or the infamous "eye-test", it gets old and frustrating.

So if people want to vent their frustrations with stupid comments when the team is doing bad and throw around ridiculous arguments, it's inevitable that the "I told you so" will come out, and rightfully so.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I was a detractor. I felt he needed to be fired in order to save the season. I didn't think he had what it took to inspire the players to take their game to the next level.

After Stickgate I was intrigued. When I saw him lose his #### at refs vs Anaheim and the players respond with a huge physical game, I thought to myself that maybe, just MAYBE, Gulutzan can turn this around and save the season.

Call it superficial, but I've visually seen more fight out of him and the players have responded. No more of those embarrassing and aggravating performances where the entire team is sleeping until the 50 minute mark.

Absolutely, it's my thought process too, regardless of validity. Everybody has been saying 'you only see a glimpse' of the coach-player interactions. But it's sure nice to see him wear it on the sleeve.

[Tinordi]

I honestly can't believe people, mere weeks ago, were pining for Bob Hartley hockey. Goes to show how deeply most fans discount the overwhelming role that luck has to play in a sport with such thin margins as NHL hockey. Hartley was a bad coach that caught an unprecedented run of luck. A run of luck that has almost never been seen in the history of the league. That the collective hysteria reached its nadir with legitimate discussion on wanting Bob Hartley to return is depressing.

[Chr1s]

want to share some thoughts in here..

team is playing fantastic , our core players have decent contracts and by now were getting the wins.GG let them play more organized hockey, not that spectacular as Hartley Hockey could be, but cmon we all know this would not work again.

Even our worst contracts are not that bad.
I dont get the massive Stajan / Brouwer hate. Yes, both arent playing good hockey in the O-zone, but did you really expect this from these guys?
Stajan is in his last year of that contract, both of them playing massive minutes in our PK wich is without any doubt very effective.
In this context is it that weird that GG gets them out in the last Minute of a Game while we are up by 1? All the hate when the other team scores. Man, that happens, but i think i would get my proven pk unit out there aswell or at least i understand why he´s doing that.

And look at our prospects , they´re getting called up and bring NHL level.

I follow the Flames for 8-9 years now. Never seen so much talent, defensive structure and team chemistry.
The 5on5 hockey the Flames play this season is extremely powerfull.

The new rules in terms of hooking slashing etc lifts #13 and his contract in new heights. That´s insane value for 6,75m$. Look around the league what players get these days. Cant imagine a crosbyesque deal in 2017.

ofcourse there are things to work on, like our PP. But is it all that bad?

sorry for grammar and stuff

[Dajazz]

I'm not a fan of GG, the few games I get to watch makes me wonder about line usage, dzone coverage and breakouts - so I don't know if they are winning in spite of or because of GG. Once our second pairing and fourth line started playing well the team looks a lot different. Could be a number of reasons - Jagr or Frolik injury shuffling the lines, stick gate etc.

Either way, I like winning so I'll shut my trap for a while.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

Being on the patience side of things, most of us try to "rationally" (I put that in quotations because there are some bad apples on this side as well) discuss viewpoints on games, the positives and negatives, what we can improve, etc., anything to facilitate good hockey conversation.

But instead, we have every naysayer BOMBARD every single thread with the same comment about firing GG. Everyone is entitled to their viewpoints but when you have every thread filled with FIRE GG, FIRE X PERSON TO THE MOON, TRADE MONAHAN (which was probably one of the most bizarre one I saw), along with childish Glue Gun name calling, it gets absolutely insufferable. It got to the point where there is no point coming on here because you can't have a meaningful conversation. it's like we're in a facebook comment thread.

Even the eternal optimist thread was an opportunity inject some positivity and meaningful discussions around here, but then you still have the naysayers trolling on there.

A lot of us here are here for meaningful hockey conversation and debates, a place to learn the opposite view points through facts, stats, etc. When majority of opposing arguments are filled with garbage to fill their narrative, with no justification, or the infamous "eye-test", it gets old and frustrating.

So if people want to vent their frustrations with stupid comments when the team is doing bad and throw around ridiculous arguments, it's inevitable that the "I told you so" will come out, and rightfully so.

Sounds like you have an ignore list curating problem. Add enough people to ignore and this debate (and most others) are quite civilized. If you reduce the noise enough, then the 'signal' had people like Bingo and Wild GM on one side and Enoch Root and Calgary4Life on the other. There was plenty of quality stuff to facilitate good hockey conversation.

If you read a post that says to trade Monahan, then add the person to ignore. It's unlikely their future opinions will be good either, so save yourself the trouble.

Sidenote: Imagine if Calgary4Life tried to troll/bait someone. The post would still be 400 words long!

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Sounds like you have an ignore list curating problem. Add enough people to ignore and this debate (and most others) are quite civilized. If you reduce the noise enough, then the 'signal' had people like Bingo and Wild GM on one side and Enoch Root and Calgary4Life on the other. There was plenty of quality stuff to facilitate good hockey conversation.

If you read a post that says to trade Monahan, then add the person to ignore. It's unlikely their future opinions will be good either, so save yourself the trouble.

Sidenote: Imagine if Calgary4Life tried to troll/bait someone. The post would still be 400 words long!

Yes, this.

I use the ignore feature very sparingly, and until this past fall I think I had 2 posters on ignore, and I'm pretty sure both ended up being banned anyway.

Now I have almost a dozen. This wasn't done because I don't like hearing contrary viewpoints. In fact, I really enjoy it when they're done well because they give me something new to consider that I hadn't before...and isn't that the whole point of all this discussion?

But, those who made my list recently earned their way on there by writing posts that offered nothing new or interesting to the discussion, but were said every 5 minutes in every thread possible. They were derailing real discussions, and they became so tone deaf to those conversations that I found them too disruptive to bother reading any longer.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

I'm not a fan of GG, the few games I get to watch makes me wonder about line usage, dzone coverage and breakouts - so I don't know if they are winning in spite of or because of GG. Once our second pairing and fourth line started playing well the team looks a lot different. Could be a number of reasons - Jagr or Frolik injury shuffling the lines, stick gate etc...

I have noted before that Gulutzan is fairly criticized for line deployment and player usage, and I think some of these decisions are part of a process in his own development as a NHL head coach. It cannot be easy to find a balance between sensible distribution and timely deployment.

However, I also wonder if his line deployment is also part of a much longer view of the season, than merely on a game-to-game basis. When you take a look at the Time on Ice leaders in the NHL there are a handful of forwards playing a ridiculous amount—well upwards of 20:00 per game. The Flames's ice time leader is Michael Backlund, and he lands way down the list at #42. I do wonder if Gulutzan's insistence on reducing the minutes of his top-line players, and providing a greater balance with an increase to time played by his fourth line is part of the process to ensure that by mid May and amid a long playoff run, Johnny Gaudreau, Sean Monahan, Backlund and Matthew Tkachuk are not completely bagged, or minimally, are just a little fresher than the top players from the other team.

So, yes, it looks odd and seems counterproductive at times now, but it may prove to be a good strategy later.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Sounds like you have an ignore list curating problem. Add enough people to ignore and this debate (and most others) are quite civilized. If you reduce the noise enough, then the 'signal' had people like Bingo and Wild GM on one side and Enoch Root and Calgary4Life on the other. There was plenty of quality stuff to facilitate good hockey conversation.

If you read a post that says to trade Monahan, then add the person to ignore. It's unlikely their future opinions will be good either, so save yourself the trouble.

Sidenote: Imagine if Calgary4Life tried to troll/bait someone. The post would still be 400 words long!

If I ignored every person who preemptively called for Gulutzan head I would only have an echo chamber of about 5 people’s posts to read on cp this season

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by stone hands

If I ignored every person who preemptively called for Gulutzan head I would only have an echo chamber of about 5 people’s posts to read on cp this season

I didn't say to ignore everyone with a contrary opinion to yours. Lots of posters who didn't/don't like GG had good reasons, and made sensible posts. And didn't spam every thread with their opinions. So keep those ones and just get rid of the worst offenders. And the same goes for every debate. Eventually, you end up with a variety of opinions, but only from the sensible posters.

Sure, you might have the odd page of a game thread where you have no posts to read at all... but game threads are generally pretty awful anyway.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by stone hands

If I ignored every person who preemptively called for Gulutzan head I would only have an echo chamber of about 5 people’s posts to read on cp this season

That's the nature of the internet, and the vast majority of people who spend time on it. They don't want to read or hear information that does not confirm what they think they know. An ignore list should rarely be used, and only in the most extreme cases. If you have a long ignore list, it says more about you that it does anyone else.

On the subject, I'm still on the fire Gulutzan bandwagon. Nothing has changed with any significance. Same problems still exist, but they are masked by a winning streak. We'll see how Gulutzan and his staff react to the next loss or cluster of losses. We'll see how prepared the team is when they come off the five day break, and whether they slide back to the team they were before the break. We'll also see what the take is when players start coming back off of IR, and decisions have to be made about personnel. Do the players that were key in the surge, and brought so much life to the lineup, continue to play, or do the injured guys just slide right back into the lineup and the young guys get dispatched to the minors. I'm skeptical that anything has changed because of a stick throwing incident. Proof will be when a tough decision has to be made by the guys behind the bench. If the team continues to play well, they look ready out of the gate, and players who haven't played well for the past two seasons get the treatment they deserve rather than a contributing player with waiver eligibility, then I'll buy in and give Gulutzan support. I am still not convinced he has made any changes that has caused the latest good fortune.

[thymebalm]

Currently the team is being held together by excellent 5on5 play and excellent goaltending (defensive play). The goaltending may not be sustainable... but the 5on5 play likely is.

Gully slowly removing his head from my chopping block. Special teams are approaching respectability and the puck support is greatly improved.

Can't ride high forever... and I don't want to be pissed off again in 3 games when it all comes crashing down. But right now I have a fragile peace with the situation. The last 17 games of great defensive hockey leave me pleased.

I respect that Gulutzan is also a bit of a young coach finding his own way. Improvements have been slow, but they've been there. I think for Trelivings part, the willingness to keep calling up players is also a positive for the club.

Somehow I feel like we are better with six rookies* (Hathaway, Mangiapane, Jankowski, Hrivik, Kulak & Rittich) than we were with the veterans they replaced. That's a strange feeling to find comfort in!

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by New Era

That's the nature of the internet, and the vast majority of people who spend time on it. They don't want to read or hear information that does not confirm what they think they know. An ignore list should rarely be used, and only in the most extreme cases. If you have a long ignore list, it says more about you that it does anyone else.

On the subject, I'm still on the fire Gulutzan bandwagon. Nothing has changed with any significance. Same problems still exist, but they are masked by a winning streak. We'll see how Gulutzan and his staff react to the next loss or cluster of losses. We'll see how prepared the team is when they come off the five day break, and whether they slide back to the team they were before the break. We'll also see what the take is when players start coming back off of IR, and decisions have to be made about personnel. Do the players that were key in the surge, and brought so much life to the lineup, continue to play, or do the injured guys just slide right back into the lineup and the young guys get dispatched to the minors. I'm skeptical that anything has changed because of a stick throwing incident. Proof will be when a tough decision has to be made by the guys behind the bench. If the team continues to play well, they look ready out of the gate, and players who haven't played well for the past two seasons get the treatment they deserve rather than a contributing player with waiver eligibility, then I'll buy in and give Gulutzan support. I am still not convinced he has made any changes that has caused the latest good fortune.

Well let's see who could come off the IR

Michael Frolik: I don't think you'd get anyone to argue against putting him in the lineup. Not largely effective offensively this year, but still gets his chances and plays an extremely strong 2-way game, not to mention penalty killing.

Jaromir Jagr: I don't see him coming back at all, but even so, he was effective when fully healthy even if he was quite slow. No harm in seeing if he can contribute over someone like Mangiapane or Hrivik. I mean, he's Jagr.

Kris Versteeg: Maybe not the strongest 5 on 5 player, but obviously he was a strong asset on the power play as it tanked as soon as he was injured. Not saying he's essential, but I don't think he's AHL waiver fodder over some of the lower call ups.

Jankowski is here to stay. I suspect Hathaway will stick at least as a 4th liner. Not sure Mangiapane or anyone else is ready for full time duties just yet.

I guess what i'm saying is that I don't know where you're getting this idea of injuries keeping good young players out of the lineup. The only debatable situation is probably the Versteeg one.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

Currently the team is being held together by excellent 5on5 play and excellent goaltending (defensive play). The goaltending may not be sustainable... but the 5on5 play likely is.

Gully slowly removing his head from my chopping block. Special teams are approaching respectability and the puck support is greatly improved.

Can't ride high forever... and I don't want to be pissed off again in 3 games when it all comes crashing down. But right now I have a fragile peace with the situation. The last 17 games of great defensive hockey leave me pleased.

I respect that Gulutzan is also a bit of a young coach finding his own way. Improvements have been slow, but they've been there. I think for Trelivings part, the willingness to keep calling up players is also a positive for the club.

Somehow I feel like we are better with six rookies* (Hathaway, Mangiapane, Jankowski, Hrivik, Kulak & Rittich) than we were with the veterans they replaced. That's a strange feeling to find comfort in!

So would you attribute that more to the coach changing things up, or the players finally figuring it out and doing what has been asked of them within the context of playing his system?

[Red]

Originally Posted by transplant99

So would you attribute that more to the coach changing things up, or the players finally figuring it out and doing what has been asked of them within the context of playing his system?

As far as PP goes. Clearly personnel since none of Brouwer, Brodie or Versteeg are on the first unit.

Johhny - Monahan - Brouwer - Versteeg

Brodie

vs

Johhny - Monahan - Ferland/Janko/Tkachuk
Giordano

Not exactly a tweak here, this is an overhaul. I am pretty sure it was a difficult call for the coaches. Kudos to them for making it happen. I'd go a step further, add Hamilton and deploy two Dmen on the first unit.

[Hey Connor, It's Mess]

This thread will be the gift that keeps on giving long into the future.

[Flash Walken]

Since Gulutzan changed the system from "Narrowly losing" to "Narrowly and sometimes impressively winning" i've become a big fan.

Need a little bit more of the 'winning' game prep and systems play, a little less 'shooting wide of the net on a set play' systems.

I much prefer Cameron's "Completing passes on the powerplay system." The old system of "one too many incomplete passes" just wasn't doing it for me.