Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Nacre

This is just incomprehensible to me with a cap on property tax of $250,000 and rent of $2.5-3 million per annum. Even with the province collecting roughly $4.5 million from sales tax on tickets sold there is no way government can make enough to justify the construction cost.

The only way you can argue that the city has broken even is if you attribute all of the property development in downtown Edmonton to the addition of the arena and the Oilers. But this does not make sense as similar development and post-recession housing recovery is seen in cities without the NHL. Housing prices are increasing in 80 per cent of all local markets in Canada thanks to global recovery from the recession.

I'm sorry to use another American example after discussing Seattle, but look at the Sharks and San Jose. San Jose became wealthy and populous because of the growth of tech companies and thus tech jobs. And then major sports teams started moving there so they could sell tickets and corporate suites to workers at Intel, Apple, etc. The NHL similarly wants the Seattle market so they can sell luxury suites to executives at Microsoft, Amazon, Boeing, Starbucks, etc.

Professional sports is an entertainment industry. Teams do not generate disposable income for people in the community. They consume disposable income.

He didn't even say the city is "breaking even", but are merely presently surprised by the increase in tax revenue in the area around the rink. What they expected vs what they are collecting is completely unknown.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

It’s up to the owners now. I do not see the City moving off its position in any meaningful way.

yeah, I don't think the Owners see it that way.

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Anyone care to estimate the tax losses to Canada/Alberta if the Flames moved to the US? 50 m+ a year sound about right?

I'd be much more worried about how much local charities would lose out on. The Flames Foundation does a heck of a lot for this city. The owners have done a lot too. Let's not forget that.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

I'd be much more worried about how much local charities would lose out on. The Flames Foundation does a heck of a lot for this city. The owners have done a lot too. Let's not forget that.

Nothing against the Flames Foundation which does do good work, but its pennies on the overall donations in the area and companies like Telus and Shaw donate much more and no one wants them to get handouts from the government.

[CliffFletcher]

A good article on the uncertain future of pro sports. For some context on the business of sports and arenas.

...Just five years ago, you thought sports would grow exponentially forever since it was the last televised product that was time sensitive. Now that strength looks like a profound weakness – and it's dangerously out of touch with new purchasing habits.

Sports is something you really enjoy – such as, say, cake – but it can only be bought between 7 p.m. and 10 p.m. If you feel like having cake at 5 o'clock, you're out of luck. Some people are going to decide they'll have ice cream instead.

This won't stop millions from consuming sports and its related products, but many will not do it in a way that boosts league revenue. They'll watch clips on Instagram or they'll argue about the big catch on Reddit. They'll let other people sift through the interesting parts and give them their sports in a digestible format that suits their schedule. Increasingly, they will be resentful of being expected to pay anything for stuff they can find for free on the internet...

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ticle37461194/

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

I'd be much more worried about how much local charities would lose out on. The Flames Foundation does a heck of a lot for this city. The owners have done a lot too. Let's not forget that.

I'd be curious to know the breakdown of how much the funds that they raise comes from the Flames ownership/organization themselves, compared to the people of Calgary who donate to it. As nice as it is for the Flames to put on these events for people to donate to, I would like to to think that Calgarians (including Flames owners and sponsors) would not stop donating to good causes if the team left.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

A good article on the uncertain future of pro sports. For some context on the business of sports and arenas.

Haven't read the article yet, but I agree entirely with the snippet you provided. The NHL needs to get with the times... many people aren't willing to sit in front of the TV for 3hrs anymore, until midnight or later depending on where you live.

IMO, a great first step they could take would be to have the anthems and any other pregame shenanigans happen prior to the scheduled puck drop. If the schedule says a game starts at 7pm, then the puck should be dropped no later than 7:01pm. It's BS to tune into a 7pm start and not see any actual hockey until 7:10 or 7:20.

I think there's a lot that the league could do to speed up the games, and cut the viewing time down to 2hrs flat.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

Haven't read the article yet, but I agree entirely with the snippet you provided. The NHL needs to get with the times... many people aren't willing to sit in front of the TV for 3hrs anymore, until midnight or later depending on where you live.

IMO, a great first step they could take would be to have the anthems and any other pregame shenanigans happen prior to the scheduled puck drop. If the schedule says a game starts at 7pm, then the puck should be dropped no later than 7:01pm. It's BS to tune into a 7pm start and not see any actual hockey until 7:10 or 7:20.

I think there's a lot that the league could do to speed up the games, and cut the viewing time down to 2hrs flat.

Good point. Hockey also has the longest intermission break of any sport. The pace of the game is one of the biggest factor in baseballs decline in viewership. Quicker games and shorter seasons might drive overall interest up.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Good point. Hockey also has the longest intermission break of any sport. The pace of the game is one of the biggest factor in baseballs decline in viewership. Quicker games and shorter seasons might drive overall interest up.

It’s interesting but I don’t see any meaningful way to speed up hockey games. The Players wanted 18 minute intermissions, I doubt they would change, I doubt broadcasters would allow less TV timeouts without it being some sort of PPV model which would kill the viewership imo.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

The games that are played outside of Alberta/Canada aren't subject to Albertan/Canadian income taxes.

Other teams players coming in are taxed though, it still works out the same

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Weitz

It’s interesting but I don’t see any meaningful way to speed up hockey games. The Players wanted 18 minute intermissions, I doubt they would change, I doubt broadcasters would allow less TV timeouts without it being some sort of PPV model which would kill the viewership imo.

Even just dropping the puck at the scheduled start time, and making a hard rule that intermissions are 15 min, would cut game times by 15-20 min on average.

That would be a great start.

[Fuzz]

No one forces you to watch the first 15 minutes though...I mean, it should be pretty obvious by now that a game starts about 15 minutes after the scheduled time, so adjust accordingly. Or PVR and start watching 30 minutes after the scheduled time, then you can get to the second period without commercials.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

No one forces you to watch the first 15 minutes though...I mean, it should be pretty obvious by now that a game starts about 15 minutes after the scheduled time, so adjust accordingly. Or PVR and start watching 30 minutes after the scheduled time, then you can get to the second period without commercials.

It's not the first 15 minutes that are the issue, it's the last 15 minutes that also get pushed back that become the problem, particularly on the second leg of double headers.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

No one forces you to watch the first 15 minutes though...I mean, it should be pretty obvious by now that a game starts about 15 minutes after the scheduled time, so adjust accordingly. Or PVR and start watching 30 minutes after the scheduled time, then you can get to the second period without commercials.

Anything that prevents you from watching the game, and potentially pushes you towards something else, is not good for viewership or your ability to connect with the game. There have been more than a few times where I just start watching some other show (be it live or on Netflix or something) and then get more invested in that than the game itself. Also, pushing people towards PVR viewership (which I heartily do myself!) can't be good from an advertising perspective.

I'm not sure the last time I watched a full game, from start to finish live, was. It's way too long, and the product on the ice is often not worth investing in. I'm all for finding ways to make the game more concentrated.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

Even just dropping the puck at the scheduled start time, and making a hard rule that intermissions are 15 min, would cut game times by 15-20 min on average.

That would be a great start.

I would say reduce intermission times even more, and make them 10 minutes. No other sport has over 15 minutes of rest time. (Aside from quarter breaks which are like TV timeouts)

[Freeway]

They have to have 18 minute intermissions because of ice quality concerns from the NHLPA.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Joborule

I would say reduce intermission times even more, and make them 10 minutes. No other sport has over 15 minutes of rest time. (Aside from quarter breaks which are like TV timeouts)

Soccer half-time is 15-18 minutes, but that only happens once and there are generally no other stoppages.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Other teams players coming in are taxed though, it still works out the same

Their average tax rate will be lower because their taxable income will be lower.

[jayswin]

I would honestly be in favour of adopting NBA game breakdowns. It's so much easier to stay invested in the game because the quarter breaks are basically a short time out. football and basketball both nailed the sports fan with two big parts to the game and one decent intermission in the middle.

NBA:

Starts the game at the exact time it says - You turn it on at 7pm, you see the players at centre court tipping off.

1st quarter - 1.5 minute break - 2 quarter

Half time - 15 minutes

3rd quarter - 1.5 minute break - 4th quarter.

[jayswin]

I think fans would be way more invested in quicker quarters without two monstrous intermissions.

Even the NBA with this breakdown understands the changing landscape of society and has been testing shorter games in pre-season, knowing that the days of young viewers sitting at a TV/device for 3 hours at a specific time every couple of days is ending.