If this team was getting worked night in and night out I'd be with you guys on stagnating and and the wrong message and make a change.
But they're just not.
You don't have an issue with a team not following their coach when they routinely outplay the opposition.
They are on their way in my mind. I honestly think they are a game or a week away from a stretch (something like 7-2-1) that will put this whole discussion to rest.
a 7-2-1 streak would get the Flames to +8 (wins over losses)
Currently
Vegas +15
Nashville +13
LA +11
Wpg +10
St.L +9
San Jose +8
So if none of the 6 teams that the Flames are basically even with plays goes +2 over the Flames +5 streak and the 6 best teams in the conference play even then the Flames move to a tie for 6/7 out of 8 playoff spots
Of the top 13 teams in the conference there is 1, St. L that is below even over their last 10 games.
Of the 15 teams in the conference there are only 3 that are below even in their last 10 games. St.L , Arizona and Vancouver.
The Flames have played themselves into a hole where a 7-2-1 starting tonight just gets them into a good spot for the dash for the bottom 2-3 playoff spots.... provided things break their way and none of the other 6 bubble teams Dallas, Chicago, Minnesota, Anaheim,Colorado, Edmonton go on a similar streak.
Over the next 14 games the Flames ( end of January) the Flames have 1 game (Buffalo) where they would be the betting favorite. and 6 where they would be obvious underdogs.
Yes, it takes time for a young team to develop. But Treliving sure hasn't been acting like the GM of a young, developing team lately. Do the managers of young, developing teams who aren't yet established playoff teams trade away 3 x 3rds, 4 x 2nds, and a 1st round pick in the space of 18 months? Those are the moves of an established playoff team desperate to make the push to contender, not a young, mediocre team trying to become a playoff team.
Treliving has gambled by trading away a lot of picks in order to speed up the rebuild. If it doesn't work, and this remains a mediocre team, there will be a real price to pay down the line. People can fool themselves by pointing to the odds of any given pick turning into an NHL difference-maker, but that wealth of picks represents a major part of the Flames' future intake of young prospects. This will be a worse team 4-7 years from now without them.
I can't say I agree with a lot of this. Yes a big price was paid in order to accelerate the rebuild. But you make it sound like it was a bunch of age 30+ veterans that the team is counting on to push the team forward. That couldn't be further from the truth.
Hamilton was all of 21 when he was traded here. Hamonic 26. You also might recall that the biggest need in the summer of 2015 wasn't depth at C, or on the wing or even goaltending. It was to have an upward trending, young, puck-moving RHD that the team could build around and become a core piece. Hamilton fit that description better than almost all other players in his age group in the entire league. A 1st and two 2nds (2nds that were acquired by trading away pending UFA's) for a young 21 year old core piece that was EXACTLY what the Flames needed. Usually you get franchise D via the draft, not trades. When a rare opportunity like that comes around, IMO you have to take it. I don't think we'll see another trade like the Hamilton one for a while (a top pairing D for a mid 1st and couple second rounders). A GM should be fired for NOT making that trade when it's available to them. Especially given that the universal consensus by not only CP but the entire hockey world was that it was a fleecing by the Flames. If the Flames hadn't made that trade, we would all still be wishing this very day for a future franchise D, as no current D in our pipeline would have plugged that hole.
Those are precisely the kind of trades young, mediocre teams trying to become a playoff team try to make.
As for Hamonic, the jury is still out on him. He has shown in the past to be able to anchor a pairing and play at a high level. Things like adapting to a new system and new partners, after 7+ years with the team that drafted him, are very much a real thing. I'm more than willing to be patient with him before I start making claims like the Flames would be a worse team down the road because they don't have those draft picks. Lest we forget how much crow the Hamilton-haters ingested recently.
Last edited by Huntingwhale; 12-28-2017 at 01:33 PM.
I can't say I agree with a lot of this. Yes a big price was paid in order to accelerate the rebuild. But you make it sound like it was a bunch of age 30+ veterans that the team is counting on to push the team forward. That couldn't be further from the truth.
Hamilton was all of 21 when he was traded here. Hamonic 26. You also might recall that the biggest need in the summer of 2015 wasn't depth at C, or on the wing or even goaltending. It was to have an upward trending, young, puck-moving RHD that the team could build around and become a core piece. Hamilton fit that description better than almost all other players in his age group in the entire league. A 1st and two 2nds (2nds that were acquired by trading away pending UFA's) for a young 21 year old core piece that was EXACTLY what the Flames needed. Usually you get franchise D via the draft, not trades. When a rare opportunity like that comes around, IMO you have to take it. I don't think we'll see another trade like the Hamilton one for a while (a top pairing D for a mid 1st and couple second rounders). A GM should be fired for NOT making that trade when it's available to them. Especially given that the universal consensus by not only CP but the entire hockey world was that it was a fleecing by the Flames. If the Flames hadn't made that trade, we would all still be wishing this very day for a future franchise D, as no current D in our pipeline would have plugged that hole.
Those are precisely the kind of trades young, mediocre teams trying to become a playoff team try to make.
As for Hamonic, the jury is still out on him. He has shown in the past to be able to anchor a pairing and play at a high level. Things like adapting to a new system and new partners, after 7+ years with the team that drafted him, are very much a real thing. I'm more than willing to be patient with him before I start making claims like the Flames would be a worse team down the road because they don't have those draft picks. Lest we forget how much crow the Hamilton-haters ingested recently.
I think those picks being traded in the last 18 months doesn't include Hamilton which was a year before
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You keep saying expectations are way to high. I'm curious what's your expectations of the team this year as far as how far they go/where they finish? Not what you hope for but what you expected going into the season
The expectations are too high. That's the reason for the current outrage. You'd think with everyone calling for the coach's head that we're a basement dwelling team far below .500. But we're currently entrenched in a playoff race like the majority of the Western Conference and despite a slow 5-6 start to the season, we've climbed into the race.
We are what we are, we were a playoff team last season that was swept by a veteran team at their peak. Conversely, we're a young team that makes mistakes and plays with inconsistency. The process night after night looks pretty good out playing and out chancing teams, but we've struggled with finishing scoring chances and our special teams have been up and down. We have the chance to grow into a contending team, but it's going to take time before we dethrone the dominant teams of the West who are in a different stage of their evolution. I didn't think dding Travis Hamonic wasn't going to change too much either especially since he hasn't shown to be a gigantic upgrade on Derek Engelland. Goaltending has improved but Mike Smith has cooled down significantly as well from his torrid start. Overall, I didn't have this team contending for a Stanley Cup just yet.
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One thing I do know - the core of this team used to CRUSH the Oilers. Now they get absolutely dominated each time they step on the ice against them... I personally put that on GG.
Yes, the Oilers are better than they were a couple years ago, but are they undefeated (with most being very easy wins) better than the Flames?
I think it goes far beyond McDavid. Yes, there's been a couple games where he's looked dominant but there's been games were he hasn't been much of a factor and the Flames still come out with piss poor efforts.
My posts may be junk and all, but at least I am not the one insinuating that Murray Edwards or some other higher up tells GG to play a guy with 0 PP goals on the top PP unit. Edwards probably liked what he saw in Chiasson last year when he played on the top line.
I guess Edwards also suggested what the 4th line should look like.
Is Treliving line matching during games? Oh yes, silly me, our coach doesn't like to line match. Because you now, our 4th line is as good as any line in the NHL. After all, it was Murray fricken Edwards that built it.
I can respect other's opinions why GG should get a pass. But that's because some of them actually brought some arguments and statistics. Your upper management meddling theories (unfounded I might say) don't hold any water. Maybe when I learn a thing or two about decision making in the NHL it will make more sense to me. Maybe.
Gulutzen does line match. He matches lines all the time. Why do you think Backlund's line has earned the reputation of being a premier shut down line. They also take a crazy amount of defensive zone faceoffs compared to the 3rd line who conversely gets mostly offensive zone faceoffs to minimize risk. Is this not coaching?
The 4th line is a current mess and Brouwer should be playing as little as possible which is currently the case. But Treliving paid him big dollars to be a game changer and he's been an utter disappointment. I may not agree with him being on the PP, in fact I hate it, but I can see why he's up there sometimes as he's one of our only regular right handed shots on the team. I actually agree with you that our 4th is terrible and should be changed, but it's not that easy to go up to your boss and tell him that you need to sit an $18 million mistake down in Stockton.
I'm completely valid in criticizing your opinion on all the problems being pinned on one guy and I'd do it again because I disagreed with it vehemently. Might not be fair, but I didn't think your post was very fair either.
When is it going to be acceptable to be tired of mediocrity? 13 years and one playoff series win to show for it. If management has shifted to a win now mode (clearly indicated by BTs aquiring of Hamonic) then when is it acceptable to expect some results. Hartleys leash was cut too early in my opinion and now BT is giving GG an extended look because hes suppose to be "his guy". Well over 100 games in and GG has shown no signs of growing this team into a contender. So is Brad overestimating the skills of our current roster? Or is GG not getting enough out of his players? Something has to give because personally its getting incredibly tiresome not knowing what to expect out of this roster on a nightly basis.
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Only because this coach doesn't have a clue on how to contain him, he continues to put Backlund on him but Backlund is too soft and gives him far too much room in the neutral zone. To slow down McDavid you need a chippy player who hounds him in every zone and doesn't give him the chance to wind up. without looking I would guess McDavid has more points per game against Calgary since GG started coaching than any other team
Only because this coach doesn't have a clue on how to contain him, he continues to put Backlund on him but Backlund is too soft and gives him far too much room in the neutral zone. To slow down McDavid you need a chippy player who hounds him in every zone and doesn't give him the chance to wind up. without looking I would guess McDavid has more points per game against Calgary since GG started coaching than any other team
Totally agree with this, I think he should try the SMG line on him. Bennett and Hathaway can be chippy and Jankowski has the long reach and big.
It is becoming more clear that there are 2 thoughts on CP when it comes to GG
1 - We are a couple wins away from being back into the thick of things so stop acting like the sky is falling. GG is doing just fine.
2 - We should be much better / more consistent than we are despite still having an opportunity at playoffs and GG has been given plenty of time to show the slightest bit of improvement which he has not.
If Tre didn't improve goaltending, this team is behind the oilers and near the basement in the west. Outside of goaltending, the team is quite similar to last year. Not only has GG not been able to improve the team with a better lineup but he has actually found a way to make it worse. Smiths play early on might be the only reason GG is still coaching right now. Smith put the bandaid on which is slowly coming off now.
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When is it going to be acceptable to be tired of mediocrity? 13 years and one playoff series win to show for it. If management has shifted to a win now mode (clearly indicated by BTs aquiring of Hamonic) then when is it acceptable to expect some results. Hartleys leash was cut too early in my opinion and now BT is giving GG an extended look because hes suppose to be "his guy". Well over 100 games in and GG has shown no signs of growing this team into a contender. So is Brad overestimating the skills of our current roster? Or is GG not getting enough out of his players? Something has to give because personally its getting incredibly tiresome not knowing what to expect out of this roster on a nightly basis.
Well really its almost 30 years and 4 playoff series wins ... not even sure that's mediocrity .. and if you don't include the magical 2004 run
I have stayed out of the conversations about the coach because a lot of discussions are similar to Southpark outrage of people screaming the same things over. From GG not matching lines to he doesn't yell at refs.
I look at the way the team plays on the road and to me that shows the coach can prep the team, for some reason the players at home and in big games freeze. Part of this is definitely on the players, but there is a lot of time left in the season to figure things out.
I'm not in favour of firing the coach, if they did I don't think there is a suitable candidate out there. No way Sutter comes here without some sort of say on roster and that is just asking for trouble.
My expectation was that this would be a 100-point team this season, putting them somewhere in that 8th-12th overall spot. 36 games in and we're on pace for 89 points, 5 back of last season's 94 points, and on pace for 20th overall.
How can a team that upgraded it's defense (Stone & Hamonic over Wideman & Jokipakka) and goaltending (Smith over Elliott), while not losing a single piece on offense, actually suffer a regression?
There is no way that this roster should be flirting with the bottom 1/3rd of the standings.
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My expectation was that this would be a 100-point team this season, putting them somewhere in that 8th-12th overall spot. 36 games in and we're on pace for 89 points, 5 back of last season's 94 points, and on pace for 20th overall.
How can a team that upgraded it's defense (Stone & Hamonic over Wideman & Jokipakka) and goaltending (Smith over Elliott), while not losing a single piece on offense, actually suffer a regression?
There is no way that this roster should be flirting with the bottom 1/3rd of the standings.
Gulutzan said this was a 100 point team at the beginning of the season.
I don't think it's fan expectations out of whack at all. Fans aren't the ones who unloaded picks to bolster a current roster or fired the previous coach early.
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