Should the Flames fire Gulutzan?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Firstly. the lottery odds mean that any team that misses the playoffs has a chance of picking top 3. Last year the Flyers were 19th in the NHL, and won 2nd overall. The Stars were 24th in the NHL, and won 3rd overall. The season prior, the Jets were 23rd in the NHL, and won 2nd overall. Treliving's Hamonic trade has no contingency in place for this.

And even outside of that, the quality of player available in the 17th to 22nd-ish place zone should not be ignored. We lost our chance to draft Vladimir Tarasenko making a bad trade of this sort many years ago. We lost our chance to draft Brock Boeser, Matthew Barzal, or Kyle Connor when we traded our 15th overall pick for Dougie Hamilton.

In fact, not including the above four players, here are some players picked in past 10th in the first round of the last decade of drafts:

Erik Karlsson
Jordan Eberle
Jake Gardiner
Ryan Ellis
Nick Leddy
Chris Kreider
Cam Fowler
Jaden Shwartz
Oscar Klefbom
Kevin Hayes
Andrei Vasilveskiy
Filip Forsberg
Tomas Hertl
Teuvo Teravainen
Radek Faksa
Alexander Wennberg
Anthony Mantha
Dylan Larkin
David Pastrnak
Josh Ho-Sang
Charlie McAvoy

Not only do we not know where we would have drafted, we don't know who we could have drafted. Not knowing this, it was irresponsible to trade that pick for Travis Hamonic, who at best is a #4 defenseman and really has barely even played like one in a couple years.

As it stands, we have no draft pick in the first round. All for a trade that was questionable the day it was made.

I'm personally fed up with this organization botching first round after first round of the draft and expecting to go far.

This is a team sitting 19th in points percentage that has no first round draft pick. That is simple unacceptable and no one should get out Scott Free. Last time this happened, one Sutter lost a job but we had to suffer through three more years of the worse Sutter. You gotta clean house fully. Especially when you have pieces like TJ Brodie, Sam Bennett, and Johnny Gaudreau all of whom have shown elite potential and it's being pissed away at both an individual and team level. Brodie should be a top 10 defenseman in the league, where he's currently not looking like a top 10 defenseman in the Pacific. Johnny should be dangerous on a nightly basis, but he pretty much has been hot-and-cold since Gulutzan took over. Bennett should be a top two line center given opportunity to overwhelmingly succeed, instead he's our 3rd line left wing.

Being a GM must be easy.

[transplant99]

I'd never thought of that before, but it certainly seems to be true. Can anyone name an NHL coach that had his biggest impact in his third of fourth season with a team?

Paul Maurice?

Peter Laviolette maybe.

Joel Quenneville in his time in St. Louis...his best team was in his 4th season.

Babcock didnt win it all until his 3rd season in Detroit.

Lots of examples where patience paid off.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Babcock didnt win it all until his 3rd season in Detroit.

Detroit won the President Trophy by 10+ points in Babcock's first season with them.

A first round loss to the miracle Cinderella story doesn't really support your argument here.

I have a feeling if the Flames won 58 games this year, no one would be complaining about the coach.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

The biggest problems you point out can be pointed right back at coaching. When your systems (breakout, PP, set up, etc) are so mickey mouse that other teams know where it is going, it is going to lead to a lot of turnovers.

Expectations were high because Hamonic is much more than a slight upgrade on Engelland as proven throughout their respective careers. There are a number of guys on this team not playing even close to their proven potential under other systems.

There is no way you are comparing this team with the team that missed the playoffs and are not seeing a difference... you said yourself that young players are inconsistent so those young guys are all 2 years older not to mention some key additions. It is a much stronger team than what we had 2 years ago.

A more interesting poll would be "if X, Y, Z were available" (insert top 3 potentially available coaches), should the flames fire GG? I have to assume over 90% of people vote yes. GG has nothing to show over an extended sample size with a roster that was a lock for the playoffs per sports insiders and Vegas. In a way, I feel for him because if Cameron could contribute with a proper PP, we are most likely sitting comfortably on the inside.

I believe Cameron should have been gone over the break and perhaps you give GG the ropes to years end and see if he can turn things around. If so, he earns another year but if nothing changes then you enter next year with a new staff.

This “Mickey Mouse” breakout, PP, set up and etc still made the playoffs last season despite a horrendous start. I guess half the league would be considered even more amateurish then.

People talk about potential all the time and how this team should be some juggernaut. But I completely disagree, I’m not blinded by the big names and the roster on paper. My expectations weren’t sky high because I’ve seen this song and dance before and I’m not getting fooled by it again and I figured by now everyone else would be more skeptical. Acquiring a Hamonic, or a Hamilton or a Bouwmeester doesn’t guarantee anything as evidenced by our playoff misses in 2010 and 2016.

To me, it’s all about the personnel and not about the coach. This team made the playoffs last season, we had a top 10 ranked power play and we have essentially the same players this season. The answers are in that room. If our defensemen didn’t turn the puck over so often early on maybe we’d be in a playoff position, if Sam Bennett played better in his first 15 games maybe we’d have a couple more wins, or if Jankowski started the season with the big club maybe we’d have a couple extra wins or if the 1st line was playing better than they are now then maybe this thread doesn’t exist. Or maybe we replace the 4th line and that solves all our problems.

I don’t know the answer. But all I know is that the games are all close right now and the team is prepared to win on most nights. I think that’s all you can ask from the coach since he’s not on the ice. It’s up to the players to execute. It’s a very fine between winning and losing, if our top snipers hit those empty nets in Minnesota or we get to OT vs San Jose maybe we’re 20-14-2 instead and no one is talking about how terrible we are.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Paul Maurice?

Peter Laviolette maybe.

Joel Quenneville in his time in St. Louis...his best team was in his 4th season.

Babcock didnt win it all until his 3rd season in Detroit.

Lots of examples where patience paid off.

Babcock
05/06 58-16-8 124pts
06/07 50-19-13 113pts

That's alot of winning in seasons 1 & 2, a record of 108-35-21.


Peter Laviolette's best seasons (by pts%) by team:
NYI - 1st
CAR - 2nd
PHI - 2nd
NSH - 4th (with his 1st being the next best)



Paul Maurice is a good example, but I'm not sure there's another NHL coach who's done what he has this season, this far into coaching the same team, in the last 30 years. For the most part, it seems that what you get in seasons 1 & 2 is largely what you have in a coach.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Detroit won the President Trophy by 10+ points in Babcock's first season with them.

A first round loss to the miracle Cinderella story doesn't really support your argument here.

I have a feeling if the Flames won 58 games this year, no one would be complaining about the coach.

Which is why i specifically pointed out they didnt win it all til his 3rd season...but ok.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Good post.

Personally, I think we're already neck deep in scenario #2, but it could still be #3. I'm just not sure I have enough patience to find out at this point.

As for the Gallant poll you mentioned: He was nominated for the Jack Adams the year prior to last season's disaster in Florida. He had a lot of roster turnover, and was being asked to coach a different style of game by some number crunching AGMs that are also the guys that brought in all the "possession metric" players. Gallant's team was underperforming, but it was largely because of a massive change in chemistry, some players like Reilly Smith and Jussi Jokinen having bad starts to that year, and key injuries to Huberdeau and Barkov early on. All of that information in context, the fans were more than patient with the early struggles in that year, but the owner figured that they were cup contenders and Gallant was the problem (with a word in his ear from those meddling AGMs). Tallon was a figurehead President at this point, and Tom Rowe was made GM to give the owner more direct control over the team. Remember, Tom Rowe was a yes man, and did little critical thinking of his own, and so if the owner wanted Gallant fired, Rowe did it without any push back. Following Gallant's firing, the team continued to struggle, and actually regressed significantly in the defensive zone under interim coach Rowe. It was an absolute disaster of a season that was instigated by some horrible decision in upper management structure, and it came from the owner.

On the other side of the coin, I think the owners have stayed pretty far from the day to day affairs of the team, Burke isn't meddling a whole lot, and Treliving has shown an incredible amount of patience with Gulutzan and the players. The fans have been extremely impatient, which is normal for Canadian fans, but it's been particularly bad to start this year. However, even those who have plenty of patience, like myself, have realized that this isn't going the way it should be and changes might be necessary.

I will use this next 10 game segment to make a final judgment on Glen. Anything less than 6 wins in the next 10 games and Glen should probably pack his bags.

In Florida they didn't want their 44-year old side show back at a low cap hit.
He was one of the few Panthers that exceeded personal expectations.

Interesting how Jagr is somehow supposed to be able to work with the kids and make them better. why? A lot of great players have little ability to help develop young players. Hard to teach being 6-3 230 and stronger than anyone else on the ice.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Being a GM must be easy.

Best moves/decisions by a Calgary GM in the last 4 years

Monahan @ #6
Bennett @ #4
Tkachuk @ #6

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Detroit won the President Trophy by 10+ points in Babcock's first season with them.

A first round loss to the miracle Cinderella story doesn't really support your argument here.

I have a feeling if the Flames won 58 games this year, no one would be complaining about the coach.

Are you kidding?

'Choking' like that would cause a CP meltdown calling for a full on rebuild let alone just firing the coach.

Fans have an obsession with firing the coach. The second a team underperforms its the coach's fault. I've yet to hear a good argument to fire GG detailing a failure of his systems. If you aren't in the dressing room then you don't get to comment on his motivational abilities. Just because we aren't winning like we 'should be' and he isn't putting Brodie with Stone is not enough evidence to call for his head.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper;

To me, it’s all about the personnel and not about the coach. This team made the playoffs last season, we had a top 10 ranked power play and we have essentially the same players this season. The answers are in that room. If our defensemen didn’t turn the puck over so often early on maybe we’d be in a playoff position, if Sam Bennett played better in his first 15 games maybe we’d have a couple more wins, or if Jankowski started the season with the big club maybe we’d have a couple extra wins or if the 1st line was playing better than they are now then maybe this thread doesn’t exist. Or maybe we replace the 4th line and that solves all our problems.

Our PP isn't essentially the same personnel from last year.
It was the coach that played Bennett at C to start the season.
It was the coach that sent Jankowski down.
It was the coach that played Bartkowski.
It was the coach that moved Brodie from his strong side.
It was the coach that paired Brodie and Hamonic even when it was clear it wasn't working.
It was the coach that played and still plays Stajan, Hamilton and Lazar on the 4th line while better players are available.

I agree, a couple wins here and there are we are not having these conversations. But these decisions were all made by the coach. He is most responsible for not having those extra few wins. A good coach plays to his team's strengths. This coach does not. Bottom line is that personnel issues start and end with the coach.

[Red]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Are you kidding?

'Choking' like that would cause a CP meltdown calling for a full on rebuild let alone just firing the coach.

Fans have an obsession with firing the coach. The second a team underperforms its the coach's fault. I've yet to hear a good argument to fire GG detailing a failure of his systems. If you aren't in the dressing room then you don't get to comment on his motivational abilities. Just because we aren't winning like we 'should be' and he isn't putting Brodie with Stone is not enough evidence to call for his head.

Many observations/reasons have been brought up.
Outside of spreadsheet stats there have been hardly any reasons given why GG shouldn't get the blame. Perhaps you can start listing them.

[Table 5]

A great coach gets more out of his team than what you think is possible.
An average coach gets what's generally expected out of the roster.
A bad coach is one that gets less than what's expected.

I would say that generally Gulutzan has spent about a third of his tenure in the 2nd category and two-thirds in the 3rd category. Apart from a couple streaks, I'm not sure if this team has ever consistently performed above what people generally think is possible with this roster... especially this year when the goaltending has normalized.

Unless Treliving wants to make massive changes, I think we know what we can expect from this combo of coach plus roster...average at best.

Average-at-best has generally been the Flames motto for 3 decades now though, so I'm assuming management will let this one ride till the summer for fear of looking bad or hurting feelings. Then they will probably go out and hire another cheap rookie coach.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Red

Many observations/reasons have been brought up.
Outside of spreadsheet stats there have been hardly any reasons given why GG shouldn't get the blame. Perhaps you can start listing them.

If you haven't read any reasons on why GG might not be to blame then you are intentionally ignoring them. This topic has been discussed in umpteen threads for months.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Are you kidding?

'Choking' like that would cause a CP meltdown calling for a full on rebuild let alone just firing the coach.
.

Lol. The Calgary Flames have never won 58 games. Only the Red Wings and Canadiens have done so (and only one of those teams in the last 40 years). If a coach came in next year, regardless of playoff success, and got the Flames 58 wins, we'd be lining up to [mod edit- how about we say "shake his hand" instead of what you wrote.]

The fact is, Babcock came to the Wings and had one of the most dominating seasons of all time in his first year. The point that was being made was completely wrong.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

If you haven't read any reasons on why GG might not be to blame then you are intentionally ignoring them. This topic has been discussed in umpteen threads for months.

Like what? Seriously. We keep saying that player X should not be on line Y or on the team etc. PP should have this or that. Or shouldn't have XYZ. We made very specific points. Where are the pro GG points? Anything other than advanced stats? Show me what he did that is better that expected?
Johnny will Johnny even if Gilbert makes a return. Smith playing god like to start the season? What is he making better here exactly?

I won't dismiss the possession stats completely, he really improved them. Full credit. But that has brought little results in the standings.

Is our top line better? - no
Is our second line better? - no
3rd and 4th lines? - no
Is the D better? - no
Special teams? - terrible
Compete level? - awful
Consistency? - 0
Do we win more? - Yes, slightly, but look at the roster.

Most importantly, are we a threat in the playoffs? Safe to say that every team in the west would love to draw the Flames in the playoffs. Team with no identity and spotty effort. Terrible D and special teams.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

This “Mickey Mouse” breakout, PP, set up and etc still made the playoffs last season despite a horrendous start. I guess half the league would be considered even more amateurish then.

People talk about potential all the time and how this team should be some juggernaut. But I completely disagree, I’m not blinded by the big names and the roster on paper. My expectations weren’t sky high because I’ve seen this song and dance before and I’m not getting fooled by it again and I figured by now everyone else would be more skeptical. Acquiring a Hamonic, or a Hamilton or a Bouwmeester doesn’t guarantee anything as evidenced by our playoff misses in 2010 and 2016.

To me, it’s all about the personnel and not about the coach. This team made the playoffs last season, we had a top 10 ranked power play and we have essentially the same players this season. The answers are in that room. If our defensemen didn’t turn the puck over so often early on maybe we’d be in a playoff position, if Sam Bennett played better in his first 15 games maybe we’d have a couple more wins, or if Jankowski started the season with the big club maybe we’d have a couple extra wins or if the 1st line was playing better than they are now then maybe this thread doesn’t exist. Or maybe we replace the 4th line and that solves all our problems.

I don’t know the answer. But all I know is that the games are all close right now and the team is prepared to win on most nights. I think that’s all you can ask from the coach since he’s not on the ice. It’s up to the players to execute. It’s a very fine between winning and losing, if our top snipers hit those empty nets in Minnesota or we get to OT vs San Jose maybe we’re 20-14-2 instead and no one is talking about how terrible we are.

We can agree to disagree

We barely got into the playoffs and if not for a magical 10 game win streak, there was no playoffs. At the end of the day, playoffs is playoffs so I will give you that....until we are man handled in 4 games and done for the year. Even so, it was a learning curve... GG used learning new systems as the excuse for early failures and we all know goaltending was another issue. Tre solves Glens goalie problems and Glen has a team that now knows his system....whats this years excuse?


If I watched a consistent effort each night and we were having the issues we are, then absolutely I would agree with you. I feel like there are 1 of 3 teams we could watch on any given night.

Watch the game tonight and count the number of times

On the breakout, there is no pressure on the d man but they force a long pass. 1 of 3 things will happen
- A very high % of these are turnovers.
-A fwd now has the puck with a guy all over him.
- It is deflected into the zone to chase but the D man takes too long to make their decision so the fwds are standing still and the other team easily retrieves the dump in.

The D could easily continue to bring the puck up ice which eventually opens up a passing lane or easy entry into the zone.

On the PP, count the shots from the point or high wing that are wide, blocked or ring around the boards and leave the zone. Watch other teams use the point to draw attackers high to open up some nifty play down low. Watch the flames use the point as the main shot with incredibly low odds of getting through. The best was when we decided to mix the quick pass into the slot to Monahan and all of a sudden we started scoring for a few games. Who would have thought other teams would pick up on that and take it away all while we have no answer but to go back to the point shot.

Watch the number of times Smith plays the puck and the D men are along the boards near the hashmarks. By the time the puck is played, there is pressure on the D man. It counts as a turnover but they really had no chance and we now get hemmed into our own zone. I believe this is why we have the success we do with Rittich in net. He stops it behind the net and allows the team to regroup. As the coach you either need to tell Smith when he wants the puck left behind the net or draw up a plan to utilize his elite puck handling.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Red

Our PP isn't essentially the same personnel from last year.
It was the coach that played Bennett at C to start the season.
It was the coach that sent Jankowski down.
It was the coach that played Bartkowski.
It was the coach that moved Brodie from his strong side.
It was the coach that paired Brodie and Hamonic even when it was clear it wasn't working.
It was the coach that played and still plays Stajan, Hamilton and Lazar on the 4th line while better players are available.

I agree, a couple wins here and there are we are not having these conversations. But these decisions were all made by the coach. He is most responsible for not having those extra few wins. A good coach plays to his team's strengths. This coach does not. Bottom line is that personnel issues start and end with the coach.

You couldn't possibly know for certain that all of these decisions are on the coach. Bennett was drafted as a center before Gulutzen even arrived and for all we know, upper management was stanch on the idea of keeping him as a center which ultimately meant sending Jankowski down because of a lack of playing time. That's a management decision, not just the coach.

Kulak struggled mightily in the preseason so I'm not surprised that Bartkowski started the season. Brodie had to move to the left side because Treliving acquired another right shot defensemen to give the team 3 righties and 3 lefties, so that's clearly a management decision and lastly, the 4th line is currently assembled not by choice. Do you know for a fact that the team's owners and executives are ok with paying 2 players nearly $8 million to sit in Stockton while Lazar gets claimed by another team effectively burning a 2nd round pick on nothing? I think you might need to learn a couple things on NHL decision making before you blame everything one guy.

[Enoch Root]

Several people have mentioned that the team is young and thus requires some time and patience. I think that I am substantially more patient than the average fan, but I don't think that argument really holds water with respect to this roster.

IMO, the way the D are being asked to play, and the way they are utilized, is not working. We have a very strong D core on paper, but night after night, they look horrendous on the ice. Patience? This is Gulutzan's 2nd year with all but one of them. And they aren't young, they are in their prime.

Avg age: 27.5
Avg # of seasons in the league: 6.8
Avg # of NHL coaches: 2.9

The team systems should be built around maximizing this D core. They should be firing on all cylinders. They should be among the best in the league.

But they are not. They look confused. They look disinterested. They are not producing offensively, and they are awful defensively. And it isn't because they are young or need time. They aren't that young, and they have had more than 100 games with this coach (other than Hamonic).

This fact alone is reason enough for change IMO.

[Enoch Root]

oops, avg number of coaches should be 2.8 ^

[Red]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

You couldn't possibly know for certain that all of these decisions are on the coach. Bennett was drafted as a center before Gulutzen even arrived and for all we know, upper management was stanch on the idea of keeping him as a center which ultimately meant sending Jankowski down because of a lack of playing time. That's a management decision, not just the coach.

Kulak struggled mightily in the preseason so I'm not surprised that Bartkowski started the season. Brodie had to move to the left side because Treliving acquired another right shot defensemen to give the team 3 righties and 3 lefties, so that's clearly a management decision and lastly, the 4th line is currently assembled not by choice. Do you know for a fact that the team's owners and executives are ok with paying 2 players nearly $8 million to sit in Stockton while Lazar gets claimed by another team effectively burning a 2nd round pick on nothing? I think you might need to learn a couple things on NHL decision making before you blame everything one guy.

Sounds like you already have all the right answers...wow, what an arrogant post.