UCP Leadership Election

[lambeburger]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I could be wrong, but I really feel as though a lot of the UCP support base underestimate the number of voters who were put off by the merger. And despite the vocal opposition, the NDP still has a lot of support in this province, if this were not the case it’s unlikely the UCP merger would have needed to happen.

I think the amount of voters who voted PC/WRP last time who are put off by the merger are vastly outnumbered by the people who voted NDP last time and are put off by the NDP government.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by lambeburger

I think the amount of voters who voted PC/WRP last time who are put off by the merger are vastly outnumbered by the people who voted NDP last time and are put off by the NDP government.

Yes, but them being put off by the NDP doesn’t mean they’ll go back to vote for this new merger just because it’s not the NDP. Jean and Kenney are two very polarizing potential leaders.

[CaptainCrunch]

the last poll that I saw which was in August had the merged UCP at nearly 60% of the vote, while the NDP had about 27% of the vote and the alberta party at about 9%.

Now I know we can't trust polls anymore, but I don't think there's a tremendous level of support for the NDP. Its gone beyond the point right now of the NDP being able to use negative attacks on the UCP to win an election, they need to find a huge political win that might not be out there for them.

The old saying is that I don't think Notley can talk her way back into office for another term.

I think that after the results of this leadership election, the UCP is going to get another boost no matter what leader goes in and they'll be able to go after the NDP with one voice.

[lambeburger]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Yes, but them being put off by the NDP doesn’t mean they’ll go back to vote for this new merger just because it’s not the NDP. Jean and Kenney are two very polarizing potential leaders.

Like some other posters mentioned, I fully expect centrist parties like the Alberta Party/Liberals to garner more support. But I suspect they'll likely pick up more disillusioned former NDP voters than former PC/WRP voters. Remember PC and WRP members voted overwhelmingly (95%) for a merger. This was not a controversial move. They aren't leaving that much support behind. But yeah 1.5 years until the election, things can change, yada yada.

[DiracSpike]

I went to a Catholic High School pretty recently.

We learned what all my friends in the public system learned, with a little bit extra emphasis on the dangers of STI's and a lot more on the I guess, spiritual aspect of sex. There was no homosexual condemnations, no lake of fire crap, all pretty vanilla. We were taught about the church's attitude on contraceptives but we still learned about all contraceptive methods. We learned this in what was technically religion class, but by high school we rarely were taught scripture, more real word stuff like sex ed, also a whole year on other world religions, and things like successful marriage building and relationships. I actually found it all pretty valuable and interesting.

I really have to laugh at all the hysteria some people have about the Catholic system, it's not grounded in reality at all.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

Kenney is ok with the catholic schools teaching the following:

Catholic school boards, said the letter, will in no way accept any provincial curriculum that “promotes a contraceptive culture.” Nor will they recommend using condoms to prevent sexually transmitted infections. Condoms, said the letter, prevent “total” giving in sex.

Catholic schools, said the document, cannot teach anything positive about masturbation because it is “not part of God’s natural order.”

Oral sex? Anal sex? They’re equally forbidden, even to married heterosexual couples, because they waste seed and make sex about something other than procreation.
Any sexual acts not aimed directly at creating life, said the document “miss the mark.”

Nor, said the proposal, can Catholic schools endorse artificial reproductive technologies, because children only come “as a gift from God.”

Even teaching about consent is problematic.
“Legal consent is important,” reads the document. “But we guard against a reductionist view of our human sexuality that consent is the most important factor in decision-making.”

Perpetual chastity, it said, is the only option for people with “same-sex attraction.” Anything else would defy “God’s natural order.”

just on the sex education issue alone, I can't consider Kenney.

What's funny is that the Sex Ed taught in catholic schools does in Calgary does not meet the above. Do you have a link to this letter?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I went to a Catholic High School pretty recently.

We learned what all my friends in the public system learned, with a little bit extra emphasis on the dangers of STI's and a lot more on the I guess, spiritual aspect of sex. There was no homosexual condemnations, no lake of fire crap, all pretty vanilla. We were taught about the church's attitude on contraceptives but we still learned about all contraceptive methods. We learned this in what was technically religion class, but by high school we rarely were taught scripture, more real word stuff like sex ed, also a whole year on other world religions, and things like successful marriage building and relationships. I actually found it all pretty valuable and interesting.

I really have to laugh at all the hysteria some people have about the Catholic system, it's not grounded in reality at all.

The loudest proponents are always from the drum beating atheist crowd that typically have never stepped foot in a church or even know what goes on in a catholic school. Somehow these people always manage to know all the ins and outs of religion though. It amounts to someone with little man syndrome making noise to fuel their need to be heard 24/7.

Only the incredibly naive would actually think contraception, same sex relationships etc are not covered at some level - kids bring this stuff up ad nausea to the point where teachers are not going to ignore it...and they don't.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

the last poll that I saw which was in August had the merged UCP at nearly 60% of the vote, while the NDP had about 27% of the vote and the alberta party at about 9%.

Now I know we can't trust polls anymore, but I don't think there's a tremendous level of support for the NDP. Its gone beyond the point right now of the NDP being able to use negative attacks on the UCP to win an election, they need to find a huge political win that might not be out there for them.

The old saying is that I don't think Notley can talk her way back into office for another term.

I think that after the results of this leadership election, the UCP is going to get another boost no matter what leader goes in and they'll be able to go after the NDP with one voice.

I think it really depends how you look at it. I doubt most people who think they will get slaughtered in 2019 thought they has any chance of winning in 215, let alone forming a majority.

I think the UCP will lose more support than they will gain if either Jean or Kenney are elected. The undecided voters for the UCP leadership will probably vote for either one of them in the provincial election, but there are a lot of UCP voters who won’t support either Kenney or Jean.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I think it really depends how you look at it. I doubt most people who think they will get slaughtered in 2019 thought they has any chance of winning in 215, let alone forming a majority.

I think the UCP will lose more support than they will gain if either Jean or Kenney are elected. The undecided voters for the UCP leadership will probably vote for either one of them in the provincial election, but there are a lot of UCP voters who won’t support either Kenney or Jean.

I would really like Jean to elaborate on his plan to cut $2.6 Billion from the budget by removing the carbon tax, eliminating positions and freezing public sector wages.....he would certainly have to realize the Trudeau government is just going to strong arm a new carbon tax on the province that is likely way worse than the existing model that is actually working?

Furthermore, you can call me antiquated but going to war with already overburdened nurses, teachers and other provincial staff isn't going to pay off for future generations either. This UCP party seems like a circus side show that will collapse back into the conservative party at any minute.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The loudest proponents are always from the drum beating atheist crowd that typically have never stepped foot in a church or even know what goes on in a catholic school. Somehow these people always manage to know all the ins and outs of religion though. It amounts to someone with little man syndrome making noise to fuel their need to be heard 24/7.

Only the incredibly naive would actually think contraception, same sex relationships etc are not covered at some level - kids bring this stuff up ad nausea to the point where teachers are not going to ignore it...and they don't.

I definitely agree with this, there's a lot of conflation with some of the more extreme US evangelicals that doesn't apply to Catholics, basically at all. I've read a lot of garbage on this board alone claiming sex ed doesn't occur, or evolution isn't taught, just nonsencial and non accurate. I'm not religious now, it's been probably 8 years since I went to Church but I'm happy I went that route through school, it gives you a different perspective on a few aspects of life that I feel are valuable.

I also agree on the second part, I was laughing thinking of the things we asked in our "question box", even as early as grade 6. To the teachers credit they always explained and answered those questions which I'm sure was pretty tough to get through with a bunch of jackass 14 year olds cackling from the back.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by GGG

What's funny is that the Sex Ed taught in catholic schools does in Calgary does not meet the above. Do you have a link to this letter?

I'll look for it.

I wasn't saying this is what's currently taught, but it sounds like it's an indication that some leaders want a return to more traditional catholic sexual teachings.

what I posted is based off of this,
"when Janet French filed an access to information request with Alberta Education she received documents which detail plans by the Council of Catholic School Superintendents and the Alberta Catholic School Trustees’ Association to come up with a unique “human sexuality” curriculum. The final version is expected to be complete in three weeks."

and here's the link to the Janet French column, and a link to the materials she received via the access to information request.

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...ion-curriculum

http://wpmedia.edmontonjournal.com/2...-release-2.pdf

[CampbellsTransgressions]

It's hilarious how badly conservatives like to ignore facts.

Kids don't choose what system they are put into and they don't choose to be LGBTQ. LGBTQ kids will be taught that if they engage in sexual relations with another person of the same sex that they will go to hell.

I went to Catholic schools so don't try to tell me I'm lacking perspective. I remember very well what was taught.

And if the WR morons have their way, those kids won't have anywhere to go to for support.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by CampbellsTransgressions

It's hilarious how badly conservatives like to ignore facts.

Kids don't choose what system they are put into and they don't choose to be LGBTQ. LGBTQ kids will be taught that if they engage in sexual relations with another person of the same sex that they will go to hell.

I went to Catholic schools so don't try to tell me I'm lacking perspective. I remember very well what was taught.

And if the WR morons have their way, those kids won't have anywhere to go to for support.

It's hard to take you seriously when every one of your posts is an angry rant about "conservatives". Which Catholic school did you go to?

Also, kids can't choose what system they go to? That's made up, as is I suspect the rest of your post.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by CampbellsTransgressions

I went to Catholic schools so don't try to tell me I'm lacking perspective. I remember very well what was taught.

My anecdote is different than your anecdote therefore I am right...

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by CampbellsTransgressions

It's hilarious how badly conservatives like to ignore facts.

Kids don't choose what system they are put into and they don't choose to be LGBTQ. LGBTQ kids will be taught that if they engage in sexual relations with another person of the same sex that they will go to hell.

I went to Catholic schools so don't try to tell me I'm lacking perspective. I remember very well what was taught.

And if the WR morons have their way, those kids won't have anywhere to go to for support.

LOL were you last in grade school in the 1950's? I'm surprised you are on the internet if so. If a teacher told a student they would be going to hell for anything they would be promptly dismissed, no matter what school board they are on. This is the kind of fabricated garbage that has no place in a discussion board.

I am married to and know numerous teachers, some in the public and catholic board and can certainly guarantee you that the way they teach sex education and approach LGBTQ students is not substantially different or at all reprehensible.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by CampbellsTransgressions

It's hilarious how badly conservatives like to ignore facts.

Kids don't choose what system they are put into and they don't choose to be LGBTQ. LGBTQ kids will be taught that if they engage in sexual relations with another person of the same sex that they will go to hell.

I went to Catholic schools so don't try to tell me I'm lacking perspective. I remember very well what was taught.

And if the WR morons have their way, those kids won't have anywhere to go to for support.

Nothing that you are ranting about? Well at least not at the Catholic school I went to (14 years ago).

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I would really like Jean to elaborate on his plan to cut $2.6 Billion from the budget by removing the carbon tax, eliminating positions and freezing public sector wages.....he would certainly have to realize the Trudeau government is just going to strong arm a new carbon tax on the province that is likely way worse than the existing model that is actually working?

Furthermore, you can call me antiquated but going to war with already overburdened nurses, teachers and other provincial staff isn't going to pay off for future generations either. This UCP party seems like a circus side show that will collapse back into the conservative party at any minute.

Maybe I'm old and I didn't hear it, but Brian Jean didn't talk about going to "war" with teachers and nurses, he did talk about looking at management and administration.

The only one that talks about the UCP going to war with teachers and nurses and publicly executing them is Rachel Notley.

I would expect tho that there will probably be some rolling back of all public employee salaries and/or benefits.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I definitely agree with this, there's a lot of conflation with some of the more extreme US evangelicals that doesn't apply to Catholics, basically at all. I've read a lot of garbage on this board alone claiming sex ed doesn't occur, or evolution isn't taught, just nonsencial and non accurate. I'm not religious now, it's been probably 8 years since I went to Church but I'm happy I went that route through school, it gives you a different perspective on a few aspects of life that I feel are valuable.

I also agree on the second part, I was laughing thinking of the things we asked in our "question box", even as early as grade 6. To the teachers credit they always explained and answered those questions which I'm sure was pretty tough to get through with a bunch of jackass 14 year olds cackling from the back.

I was not raised catholic or religious at all for that matter, but later married into a catholic family. Much like yourself it has always been hilarious to me to see how much uninformed garbage extreme atheists tend spread as fact about how intolerant the catholic church is. Most of it is all jargon from a long passed era of religion that is not coming back. There are certainly some major issues with the church but let's at least have the current facts right prior to acting like you have centuries of religion figured out.

The question box is/was certainly the cause of many teachers increased liquor consumption after hours....the warped mind of the youth. At least my era pre-dated the internet and were probably far more tame by today's standards.

[PsYcNeT]

Are you guys done railing against straw man atheists yet, or is this back patting session going to go on for another 2 pages?

[MrDJZak]

I thought this thread was about the UCP leadership vote.