Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

So does Ken King even do anything now that the arena is a dead issue to them? Or does he just walk around town and reiterate that the Flames are done and that basically encompasses his job now?

He buys all the sweaters. All of them.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There is a reason the city wants it there. And that reason isn't so that CSEC can buy the surrounding lands and develop as they like.

The city doesn’t particularly care who owns/develops the land around the arena. There is some land that’s privately owned, which won’t change. There’s some city land around there too, which could potentially become part of an arena deal, and otherwise be sold later on to developers.

The city doesn’t really develop themselves.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I don't see any pedestrian traffic in EV, for instance.

You don't? How much time do you spend there? Sure, it's not Stephen Ave right now, but a lot of it is still under construction too. The area by the river and the Simmons building are relatively busy any time I'm near there.

When it's fully built-out, it will be a really nice, walkable neighbourhood. Much better than the blighted hellscape it was a decade ago.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

I don't think there is any way to separate what King is doing from the Flames ownership. King is the voice of the owners. If you don't like what he is saying, blame the owners who control him.

I agree. But if the flames owners throw King under the bus publicly and fire him while claiming he went rogue in the negotiations and sewered any chance of an arena deal, I would guess that a large number of people will blame King and praise the flames for “addressing” the issue.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by nik-

It's not about screwing anyone, it's that he thinks they deserve it. That's how out of touch they are.

I wonder if Nenshi getting re-elected (with a larger vote total no less) changes that at all?

I mean... it's easy to hang around with other rich NHL owner types (*Aham* Brett Wilson *Ahem*) telling you how great the arena idea is, and have the President's media good ol' boys network pumping your tires (*Ahem*Eric Francis*Ahem*), and when you do go into a crowd find yourself surrounded by folk more likely to directly benefit (Season Ticket holders) and think that it's the politicians who are out of touch... but when the main subject of your public ire (the Mayor) is re-elected with more votes and every incumbant returned after you injected yourself into the campaign and plastered "Bill Smith for Mayor" ads all over the Dome... that has to put you a bit more 'in touch'... Right?

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I wonder if Nenshi getting re-elected (with a larger vote total no less) changes that at all?

I mean... it's easy to hang around with other rich NHL owner types (*Aham* Brett Wilson *Ahem*) telling you how great the arena idea is, and have the President's media good ol' boys network pumping your tires (*Ahem*Eric Francis*Ahem*), and when you do go into a crowd find yourself surrounded by folk more likely to directly benefit (Season Ticket holders) and think that it's the politicians who are out of touch... but when the main subject of your public ire (the Mayor) is re-elected with more votes and every incumbant returned after you injected yourself into the campaign and plastered "Bill Smith for Mayor" ads all over the Dome... that has to put you a bit more 'in touch'... Right?

Larger vote total (barely), (greatly) smaller percentage...

All how you spin the numbers.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by getbak

You don't? How much time do you spend there? Sure, it's not Stephen Ave right now, but a lot of it is still under construction too. The area by the river and the Simmons building are relatively busy any time I'm near there.

When it's fully built-out, it will be a really nice, walkable neighbourhood. Much better than the blighted hellscape it was a decade ago.

A lot. There are people walking along the river, but it's not like there is traffic on any of the streets. None of the retail businesses could be described as thriving.

It is a very nice area. Joggers and moms with strollers must love it. And that's all great.

But when we're talking about an arena district, bringing up EV is not much of an argument in support of CMLC.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by nik-

It's not about screwing anyone, it's that he thinks they deserve it. That's how out of touch they are.

This is always the part I don't understand.
When their nearest competitor and biggest rival just opened a new facility that is the biggest sweetheart deal ever, that's your benchmark.
So it's entirely 'in touch' and in keeping with the latest similar venture.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

This is always the part I don't understand.
When their nearest competitor and biggest rival just opened a new facility that is the biggest sweetheart deal ever, that's your benchmark.
So it's entirely 'in touch' and in keeping with the latest similar venture.

In touch with the Edmonton tax base clearly isn't the same thing as in touch with the Calgary one. How many times do they need to hear the message until it sinks in?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

This is always the part I don't understand.
When their nearest competitor and biggest rival just opened a new facility that is the biggest sweetheart deal ever, that's your benchmark.
So it's entirely 'in touch' and in keeping with the latest similar venture.

When I was young and the kid down the street got a shiny new bike I didn't think that as a result I was entitled to get a shiny new bike (and I can guaren-damn-tee you that even if I had my parents would not share that opinion).

AKA just because Katz got a sweetheart deal in Edmonton doesn't mean that CSEC should get one in Calgary. We are not Edmonton, Edmonton is not Calgary.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by nik-

In touch with the Edmonton tax base clearly isn't the same thing as in touch with the Calgary one. How many times do they need to hear the message until it sinks in?

I doubt it's ever going to sink in.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Parallex

When I was young and the kid down the street got a shiny new bike I didn't think that as a result I was entitled to get a shiny new bike (and I can guaren-damn-tee you that even if I had my parents would not share that opinion).

AKA just because Katz got a sweetheart deal in Edmonton doesn't mean that CSEC should get one in Calgary. We are not Edmonton, Edmonton is not Calgary.

Except Edmonton isn't the kid down the road, they're the sibling. Both exist by virtue of the Municipal Governments Act and get similar federal and provincial funding. Circumstances are different, but Calgary can't expect the Flames to gift Calgary a new arena, but the opposite is also true. East Village isn't as dire as Edmonton's downtown, but it definitely needs a lot of help.

Either way, both parties need to move their positions. The two offers were pretty flawed. I'd say the city's was closer to reality, but a lot of the Flames' requests (parking revenue for one) were pretty reasonable too. I'd say Nenshi survived his job challenge, so I would expect King to be fired and a new spokesman appointed to allow them to save some face.

[getbak]

They're not a sibling. At best, they're a cousin in that analogy.

You and your cousins might all get the same Christmas gifts from your grandparents, but that doesn't mean you should expect your parents to buy you a new car for your 16th birthday like your spoiled-brat cousin got from his parents.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by getbak

They're not a sibling. At best, they're a cousin in that analogy.

You and your cousins might all get the same Christmas gifts from your grandparents, but that doesn't mean you should expect your parents to buy you a new car for your 16th birthday like your spoiled-brat cousin got from his parents.

Why do you say that, they have the same parent, the AB Government.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Why do you say that, they have the same parent, the AB Government.

Are you talking the cities or the teams? I was talking about the teams, so I guess in that sense, the AB Govt is the grandparent who raised the two cities and the hockey teams are the whiny kids asking for more stuff from their parents.

The Oilers threatened to run away from home and Big Daddy Edmonton caved in and gave them what they wanted. Mean Momma Calgary told the Flames to sit down and eat their vegetables when they tried the same.

[stone hands]

Awesome interview on the fan right now, political scientist skewering the csec

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

Larger vote total (barely), (greatly) smaller percentage...

All how you spin the numbers.

But a 4-3 win is a win, regardless of whether it's in Regulation, Overtime or a Shootout...hmmm? Same 2 points. A losing goaltender is still a losing goaltender, regardless of whether it's in Regulation, Overtime or a Shootout....right? Same loss.

Nenshi won, and that is, among other things, a significant repudiation of Murray Edwards' plans to shave $500 million from the citizens of Calgary.

The Flames ownership came up with a plan - no doubt aided by their rich, conservative pals, to try to get someone elected, over the choice of "the mob" (that's us, the great grey unwashed...). It didn't work. Kinda like the first game against the Greasers this year.

Now it's time for them to eat crow, get humble, apologize (publicly would be nice, but unlikely) and go back to Council and say "Great - how can we actually make this work, because we all really want it to work."

But until KK is removed from negotiations, and until Edwards steps up and says something .... nothing will happen.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

But a 4-3 win is a win, regardless of whether it's in Regulation, Overtime or a Shootout...hmmm? Same 2 points. A losing goaltender is still a losing goaltender, regardless of whether it's in Regulation, Overtime or a Shootout....right? Same loss.



Nenshi won, and that is, among other things, a significant repudiation of Murray Edwards' plans to shave $500 million from the citizens of Calgary.



The Flames ownership came up with a plan - no doubt aided by their rich, conservative pals, to try to get someone elected, over the choice of "the mob" (that's us, the great grey unwashed...). It didn't work. Kinda like the first game against the Greasers this year.



Now it's time for them to eat crow, get humble, apologize (publicly would be nice, but unlikely) and go back to Council and say "Great - how can we actually make this work, because we all really want it to work."



But until KK is removed from negotiations, and until Edwards steps up and says something .... nothing will happen.

A win is a win, no doubt...

But I think we can all concur that Nenshi winning with 80% of the vote isn't the same as winning with 51% of the vote.

Heck, we could even spin things to say that, basically, Nenshi has the same number of people vote for him 4 years ago as did yesterday. So we could even say that the spike in voters was due to people just coming out to vote for Smith, etc...

Of course I don't believe that, but what I take from the election is that 4 years ago the vast majority of Calgarians voted for more Nenshi.

This time he got his mandate, but should be conscious that many more people voted against him than last time. His mandate is much less powerful than it was 4 years ago.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Now it's time for them to eat crow, get humble, apologize (publicly would be nice, but unlikely) and go back to Council and say "Great - how can we actually make this work, because we all really want it to work."

But until KK is removed from negotiations, and until Edwards steps up and says something .... nothing will happen.

I don't see this happening. Edwards has closed the file on the arena.

Just my opinion but it will require the City to make a meaningful move to get this back on track.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

A win is a win, no doubt...

But I think we can all concur that Nenshi winning with 80% of the vote isn't the same as winning with 51% of the vote.

Heck, we could even spin things to say that, basically, Nenshi has the same number of people vote for him 4 years ago as did yesterday. So we could even say that the spike in voters was due to people just coming out to vote for Smith, etc...

Of course I don't believe that, but what I take from the election is that 4 years ago the vast majority of Calgarians voted for more Nenshi.

This time he got his mandate, but should be conscious that many more people voted against him than last time. His mandate is much less powerful than it was 4 years ago.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't disagree that his mandate is "less powerful", but that also doesn't mean he can, or will change - or for that matter, that he needs to. He would need to if he wants to run again next time...though voters have very short memories.

It also doesn't mean that Edwards gets his way just 'cos.

My guess? Edwards cashes in and sells, because he's too stubborn to do anything else (at least that's his rep). And there really is no place to which the Flames can realistically move.