Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Torture]

Listening to the Fan 960 at all regarding the arena issue makes me want to slice my ears off.

So biased but attempting to position it that they're not.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

The guy who spent much of today utterly incapable/unwilling of understanding the general benefit of city services because they don't cater to his own, selfish, individual, in the moment needs now says anyone talking about an arena issue who isn't interested in flexing nuts over Gio's shot stats has to be on nenshis payroll. Well, you chose the word 'ridiculous'.

There's absolutely nothing stopping you from going to skyscraperpage and making your perspective on an overarching, civic project that affects every single taxpayer in this city known to them from the view a flames fan. I can't say whether it'll be taken seriously considering your self-centered theories on urban development but the option is always open to you.

Nah. He's got a decent point. You're here with an agenda. And that's fine, but noted.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Redlan

I find it interesting, and quite frankly ridiculous, that there are some posters that repeat ad nauseum that they are incredulous of the Flames information yet lap up a politician's word as the gospel. It is also very interesting that there is at least one poster that has yet to actually post in a hockey related thread yet is only active in political discussion - Nenshi and his henchmen make social media their bitch. The mayor can be trusted no more and no less than the Flames, the difference being, he is a lot better at this.

Completely agree. The astroturfing On this subject is admirable. There are several posters who have non-existent posting histories in threads un-related to the business of the arena. They post nowhere else, or very just token contributions, yet they lead the charge here. They are very clear in their intent and they maintain extreme message discipline, never giving an inch or acknowldgement of anything positive on the other side of the argument. The issue has been distilled to a black and white argument where there are good guys and bad guys. This is some Tea Party level astroturfing. Have to give them credit, they have been extremely effective in the execution of their duties and have built a firewall of posters who will die on the hills they have manufactured.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Again, and again, and again:

If this really is the end of arena negotiations, CESC will sell the Flames, not move them.

I'm really not sure selling is a real threat either, at least not at this point. The CSEC is going to struggle to get the number they want to sell the team for, because any new owner will have the arena issue here, and if they are buying to move, the relocation fee that will likely be at least $200 million. So just as the CSEC tries to low ball the city here, prospective owners will be trying to low ball the CSEC in any attempt to buy. The CSEC might be stuck in no man's land if they don't get their lackey into the mayors office.

[PepsiFree]

Oh good, the “fake news! conspiracy!” posts have started. Definitely not a sign of a thread deteriorating further... definitely not...

Would someone like to point out the posters who have apparently only ever posted on this subject? Because quite frankly, painting either side like it’s motivated by some menacing plant meant to sway the opinion of the CP faithful without any actual evidence of such is a Trump-level political game. I assumed, as a board, we were above those embarrassing tactics to win an argument.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I'm really not sure selling is a real threat either, at least not at this point. The CSEC is going to struggle to get the number they want to sell the team for, because any new owner will have the arena issue here, and if they are buying to move, the relocation fee that will likely be at least $200 million. So just as the CSEC tries to low ball the city here, prospective owners will be trying to low ball the CSEC in any attempt to buy. The CSEC might be stuck in no man's land if they don't get their lackey into the mayors office.

Again, that relocation money would probably have to be higher to get the rest of the owners on board. They just got a $500M expansion fee from a completely unproven market, $200M to leave a strong one wouldn't be in the best interest of the league.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Oh good, the “fake news! conspiracy!” posts have started. Definitely not a sign of a thread deteriorating further... definitely not...

Would someone like to point out the posters who have apparently only ever posted on this subject? Because quite frankly, painting either side like it’s motivated by some menacing plant meant to sway the opinion of the CP faithful without any actual evidence of such is a Trump-level political game. I assumed, as a board, we were above those embarrassing tactics to win an argument.

Let's not, actually, because it's a conscious effort to shift the discussion.

Notice, by not naming names, he's establishing a witch hunt. Trolling level: 3rd year undergraduate.

All he's trying to establish is innuendo to destabalize and undermine the conversation.

Whereas, for example, when I thought I found some astroturfing going on I confronted the poster about it directly and that poster has since been inactive for more than 2 weeks.

New Era is trying to muddy the waters to derail the conversation from facts and evidence based discussion which clearly benefits one 'side' of this discussion more than another.

Wet T-Shirt levels of transparency on his part.

[Fire]

Is there a way to make a thread not show up so I don't get tempted to view this garbage and circular arguments?

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Again, that relocation money would probably have to be higher to get the rest of the owners on board. They just got a $500M expansion fee from a completely unproven market, $200M to leave a strong one wouldn't be in the best interest of the league.

Don't agree. A paltry extra couple million each is nothing compared to what's at stake with public money in arena deals. Relocation from a market like Calgary would send a strong message that any 'threat' to leave must be taken seriously. It's good business for all involved.

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by Fire

Is there a way to make a thread not show up so I don't get tempted to view this garbage and circular arguments?

Exactly, I would like it moved into another sub-forum, or by all means create another sub-forum. Get it out of all the actual hockey discussion.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Don't agree. A paltry extra couple million each is nothing compared to what's at stake with public money in arena deals. Relocation from a market like Calgary would send a strong message that any 'threat' to leave must be taken seriously. It's good business for all involved.

That's a message worth sending to keep a team in Glendale as long as possible, knowing you'll eventually have a safe out where the relocation fee just needs to cover league losses. Taking a hit on relocating from a strong market takes away an expansion market AND a potential relocation market for an actual bleeding franchise.

It won't come cheap.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Oh good, the “fake news! conspiracy!” posts have started. Definitely not a sign of a thread deteriorating further... definitely not...

Would someone like to point out the posters who have apparently only ever posted on this subject? Because quite frankly, painting either side like it’s motivated by some menacing plant meant to sway the opinion of the CP faithful without any actual evidence of such is a Trump-level political game. I assumed, as a board, we were above those embarrassing tactics to win an argument.

There are some posters who I've never seen post on other topics. I asked one if he ever had but I don't think I ever for a response, though I might have missed it. I'm not saying it's fake news or some sort of PR campaign, but it's kind of weird to see posters on a Flames fan forum only want to post about this topic and no others. Especially with an active off-season roster-wise, an expansion draft, Jagr and Iginla rumours and now actual preseason games to talk about.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Let's not, actually, because it's a conscious effort to shift the discussion.

Notice, by not naming names, he's establishing a witch hunt. Trolling level: 3rd year undergraduate.

All he's trying to establish is innuendo to destabalize and undermine the conversation.

Whereas, for example, when I thought I found some astroturfing going on I confronted the poster about it directly and that poster has since been inactive for more than 2 weeks.

New Era is trying to muddy the waters to derail the conversation from facts and evidence based discussion which clearly benefits one 'side' of this discussion more than another.

Wet T-Shirt levels of transparency on his part.

I am not sure if the bolded above was directed at, or in reference to, me and the below quote or not:

“Is IamNotKenKing astroturfing?

I suppose that may not be the most applicable terminology, but is it an attempt to 'manage' opinion?

Seems to have been the only one talking yesterday about the supposed plan on the table to the city from the Flames, and now appears to be the most active poster in defending the Flames apparently backing away from that plan.

I don't get it.”

I wouldn’t call that “confronting directly”. Had you wished to do that you would have sent a PM and asked me.

And don’t think I left because of you. I left because I was being personally insulted and called a liar, and had enough. I have been here since November of 2006, enjoyed most opinions and discussions, and tried to add to the odd topic where I have information that few others here do, so to suggest I simply arrived to direct a conversation is ridiculous.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There are some posters who I've never seen post on other topics. I asked one if he ever had but I don't think I ever for a response, though I might have missed it. I'm not saying it's fake news or some sort of PR campaign, but it's kind of weird to see posters on a Flames fan forum only want to post about this topic and no others. Especially with an active off-season roster-wise, an expansion draft, Jagr and Iginla rumours and now actual preseason games to talk about.

Our opinions on this topic are actually party of a meaningful public policy discussion. The impact of our opinions on hockey operations is zilch. So, it makes sense that some people might want to chime in more here. It doesn't necessarily mean they're not interested in the hockey talk...

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Oh good, the “fake news! conspiracy!” posts have started. Definitely not a sign of a thread deteriorating further... definitely not...

Would someone like to point out the posters who have apparently only ever posted on this subject? Because quite frankly, painting either side like it’s motivated by some menacing plant meant to sway the opinion of the CP faithful without any actual evidence of such is a Trump-level political game. I assumed, as a board, we were above those embarrassing tactics to win an argument.

There is no fake news here, there are some posters who have not contributed to other topics besides this particular one (or other ones that have a political tone). I have no problem with this, but I will interpret their posts based on their agenda. I have been on this site for awhile and although I do not contribute as much as some, I am reading the game day posts, EVERY Sureloss thread, etc. I know the posters who have an interest in the hockey and I can respect their opinion wether I agree with it or not. I am not going to respect an opinion that follows an agenda, on either side of this debate, that is just trying to sway opinion for the sake of their agenda. You have to look no further than a few, not all, but a few posters that dog pile on some of my contributions to this thread.

To be honest, the only reason I became involved in this discussion is to counteract their passive aggressive attacks and views. I hate taxes, but I do fall right in the middle of this debate. The constant bullying tactics make me want to stick up for the posters who are also hockey fans.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Nah. He's got a decent point. You're here with an agenda. And that's fine, but noted.

You're welcome to provide actual evidence of that anytime. When have I ever mentioned anything one way or another about Nenshi, much less anything that sounds like a campaign ad?

[BurningSteel]

Ill way in on this one finally.

Having just come back from Edmonton for the purposes of attending a concert i was in awe at Rogers Place. Yes it has some issues but every new building improves upon that of the last. The building though (even with all that Oilers stuff) in beautiful and the efficiencies that are implemented made the whole evening that much better.

It was also easy to see the effects that the building had on the surrounding area with the new mid rises going up and smaller building being built in the "Ice District" I don't have the answers for how the funding should be split to get it done but on a 28 hour trip we spent the following:

Hotel $125
Food $107
Shopping $200
Rogers Place $100

The next day I was talking to someone who came in from Winnipeg to go to the show so think of what they spent on that trip.

The trickle down effect is huge. We gave money to both mom and pop stores as well as corporations but it is all money that went into "Edmontons economy":

This was one event on one night.

Multiple this by what ever numbers you want and its only a good thing. I hope the talking heads get together and sort this thing out sooner than later and break ground.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Redlan

There is no fake news here, there are some posters who have not contributed to other topics besides this particular one (or other ones that have a political tone). I have no problem with this, but I will interpret their posts based on their agenda. I have been on this site for awhile and although I do not contribute as much as some, I am reading the game day posts, EVERY Sureloss thread, etc. I know the posters who have an interest in the hockey and I can respect their opinion wether I agree with it or not. I am not going to respect an opinion that follows an agenda, on either side of this debate, that is just trying to sway opinion for the sake of their agenda. You have to look no further than a few, not all, but a few posters that dog pile on some of my contributions to this thread.

So, we’re to ignore the fact that you have an obvious anti-Nenshi agenda?
The fact that the amount of anti-Nenshi and pro-CESC posts on this topic you’ve made in the past 2 weeks is nearly equal to your hockey-related contributions for the past year?
That you claim to be “in the middle” despite every single post carrying an obvious slant? And we’re supposed to trust that you’re not one of the people you’re drumming up a witch hunt over?

The thing is, you can make whatever conclusion you like. There’s just as much evidence to support you being a CESC shill (even the embarrassingly pandering “I’m just protecting hockey fans” is a little too political for the average poster) as there is anyone else having an obvious bias, but making the conversation about that is petty and useless.

Maybe, instead of a whole bunch of people being part of some CP astroturfing scandal, we’re just a large collective of sport fans who having varying abilities to make a compelling argument. Let’s not embarrass ourselves by conjuring up conspiracy fantasies when we don’t like what someone else is saying.

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So, we’re to ignore the fact that you have an obvious anti-Nenshi agenda?

The fact that the amount of anti-Nenshi and pro-CESC posts on this topic you’ve made in the past 2 weeks is nearly equal to your hockey-related contributions for the past year?

That you claim to be “in the middle” despite every single post carrying an obvious slant? And we’re supposed to trust that you’re not one of the people you’re drumming up a witch hunt over?



The thing is, you can make whatever conclusion you like. There’s just as much evidence to support you being a CESC shill (even the embarrassingly pandering “I’m just protecting hockey fans” is a little too political for the average poster) as there is anyone else having an obvious bias, but making the conversation about that is petty and useless.



Maybe, instead of a whole bunch of people being part of some CP astroturfing scandal, we’re just a large collective of sport fans who having varying abilities to make a compelling argument. Let’s not embarrass ourselves by conjuring up conspiracy fantasies when we don’t like what someone else is saying.

If the tone of this thread were the other way, yes I would then come across as pro Nenshi and anti CESC.

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by Redlan

If the tone of this thread were the other way, yes I would then come across as pro Nenshi and anti CESC. It is just the way I am wired. I seek balance.

So you don't actually have an opinion, and certainly not an educated one

please go away, genuinely, sincerely, that's super annoying