Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[troutman]

Nice cities with no pro sports teams - Tucson, Honolulu, Victoria, Kelowna, Quebec City, Austin, Spokane, Reno, Louisville, Albuquerque, Omaha, Providence, Hartford.

[Reneeee]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I really hope you're exagerating or joking... if not your spouse should leave you ASAP. You're prioritizing a sports club over employment, quality of life, violent crime propensity, educational opportunities... who does that?

All of that would be in place as well. But a city with all of those factors and a team win out every time vs a city without. But what million person city these days doesn't have a pro team? I can't think of one off the top of my head.



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[Backlunds_socks]

Originally Posted by New Era

You got that out of reading that proposal? Here's what I got out of that proposal.

* The Flames are putting up $275M for the construction of the arena.
* The City will front the rest and the recover their money through the CRL.
* The building will be City of Calgary owned, meaning the Flames will not have to pay property tax.
* The Flames up front contribution is also their long term rent obligation, over 35 years ($7.85M per year).
* The Flames argument against the City's proposal was that the Flames would pay $185M, be the revenue source for $185M via the ticket levy, and then still have to pay property taxes, on a building they don't want to own, meaning they are paying the full boat.



Why shouldn't they bring it up? It is the most applicable comparison. It establishes precedent in the province. Like it or not, Calgary and Edmonton are joined through a long ugly umbilical chord and what happens in one directly affects the other. The Edmonton deal is a very relevant deal and should be discussed. The Flames proposal is based on a similar model, but is so much better for the city in comparison, it is hard to fathom that anyone would not look at this and say, yeah, this is a fair deal too.

What the Flames have done is put up their rent, up front, for construction purposes. They are making a commitment to the city of $7.85M of rent, and assuming all operations costs, for use of, and revenues from, the new arena. The Oilers put up $26.5M up front (including the exhibition hall space) and are paying $3.5M a year for all use and all revenues. They also got development rights around the building. So this is a substantially better deal for the City of Calgary, and I think a much better proposal than the City's rule of thirds proposal. I can understand why people could have a beef with it, because there is no property be generated by the building (it shouldn't, as it is a City owned property being rented). I get that, but the rent on the building is fronted for construction, meaning the city doesn't have to front those monies themselves, which is a great value to them.

One thing that is missing from this presentation that fans should like, is no ticket tax. The money is recovered from a CRL rather than a ticket tax. For all the people that were concerned about being priced out of their seats because of a ticket levy, that is not there.

The Flames have placed the onus on the City to generate the revenue through the CRL, meaning if the City does want that money back, they have to make a commitment to getting the entertainment district around the arena built out as quickly as possible. I think this is smart, as the City has a history of being slow in delivery of the back end of deals. It would suck to have a new arena built, then the city drag their ass on getting the amenities and infrastructure around the building completed.

The sad thing about this is it doesn't matter what was proposed. It wouldn't have mattered what the Flames presented, the vast majority of the minds here are already made up. The Flames are the bad guys and the City are the good guys. The issue here is not finding a solution that meets all needs, its about there being a winner and a loser in this ridiculous fight. I think this proposal is a winner. I think it addresses everyone's wants and desires, and is fair to both the hockey team and the City. It also places the onus on the City to deliver the infrastructure and services to support the entertainment district the City claims they are so hell bent on providing Calgarians. I would like to know what specifically this does not address and where it is a bad deal for the citizens of Calgary, and I mean more than Ken King was involved in it?

You whole argument hinges on the CRL - which should be used to make the community better for us not for big business. The CRL is still our freakin' money.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

That's uncalled for bud. Grow up

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You prioritize professional sports in where you would take your family? And you want me to grow up?

[Regorium]

The Flames can't be serious right?

They are literally offering 10% or less (financing on the 275M up front), and they haven't even included a ton of the costs - like how much operating costs would cost for the city (since the Flames aren't paying them), how much property tax the city is losing out on, land costs etc.

[spuzzum]

They should renovate the Saddledome. Gut it and the Flames can temporarily play in Northlands if needed.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

All of that would be in place as well. But a city with all of those factors and a team win out every time vs a city without. But what million person city these days doesn't have a pro team? I can't think of one off the top of my head.

No no no... you said it was the top priority. Not behind all the stuff that's truly important... the top.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I keep looking at the Flames rationale for their breakdown of the costs, and it just doesn't add up. The math...I don't get it. I still don't see how they end up paying 120% of anything. I'm still failing to see how they pay even 50% of anything in either their proposal or the city's proposal.

I will concede that a ticket tax is an opportunity cost for the Flames, but it is not a direct revenue cost. So, it IS a contribution, but it doesn't come directly from their revenues IMO.

I need someone to break it down from the Flames perspective so that perhaps I could reasonably understand where they're coming from, because I still don't get it.

[Backlunds_socks]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

I'm listening.... Convince me otherwise.

If I ever looked to relocate my family, top of the list would be whether or not they had a pro sports club

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thats terrible.

[Passe La Puck]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

October 16th can't come quick enough. Flush out all the aldermen that would not support an NHL club in this city. At this point it will likely cost us any opportunity of having Amazon as a business partner.

With a city and it's one pro sports team bickering it really does look childish by both parties and any savvy business would avoid us at all costs.

This really does have the potential to ruin this city for years to come, ask Winnipeg. People moved, businesses moved, and only now are people returning due to the return of the Jets. Without a pro sports team our city will be undesirable to many money making vetures.

Rant over

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A completely different council in 2006 refused to put ANY money down. If anything the current council is more generous. So maybe you should go out and vote for the current council...

[browna]

So basically comes down to the Olympics coming here to get this done. Just like last time when the city had to put up a minimum investment for a new arena. Maybe that then should be a bigger picture priority for Nenshi.

The chance to hold World Cup games has left Calgary in the rear view mirror in the last few weeks due to uncertainty around a venue, a venue that would've been suitable if it was built or upgraded for opening and closing Olympic ceremonies.

[Reneeee]

Originally Posted by Weitz

You prioritize professional sports in where you would take your family? And you want me to grow up?

I do yes... That's not to say I'm a horrible person. I just value my hometown team. That's not to say I'd force them to love in a warzone just because there is pro sports.

some people get their panties twisted far too easily these days.

If the Flames were to leave I'd consider it a loss and would look to transfer to somewhere like Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto.

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[Flamenspiel]

Wow, Nenshi's got my vote. Its about time I voted in a civic election. It really does look like the current owners want to sell the team.

My one worry is that city hall will cave in to the Flames demands after he is re-elected. Peter Demong seems pretty conservative and is standing behind Nenshi when he spoke to the media, so he has my vote as well.

Rene, I think your a troll.

[Funkhouser]

Is the link not working for anyone else??
https://www.nhl.com/flames/fans/arena

Not that i should open it as I am sure it will only make me confused/furious...

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Funkhouser

Is the link not working for anyone else??
https://www.nhl.com/flames/fans/arena

Not that i should open it as I am sure it will only make me confused/furious...

Nope. This should tell you all you need to know about how much detail the Flames have in their proposal at the moment. They are literally asking for a blank cheque.

[Regorium]

http://wpmedia.calgaryherald.com/201...rena-pitch.pdf

This is the best link I've found for their pitch.

[The Hendog]

Flames are putting up more $ at the beginning than I would have thought but at the end of the term, the city ends up fronting most of the $, the city ends up owning the arena when the term is over which is an additional cost in it self and I am not as confident the CRL will work as well for the Victoria Park revitalisation as it did in the East Village.

How exactly does the interest or financing costs work for a CRL? If it takes a long long long time to pay back the $225 million from the CRL - I assume the City is on the hook for the financing costs? I see the loan would be from the province but is it really finance/interest cost free?

[killer_carlson]

How much money did Katz front in the (horrible) Edmonton deal? Isn't it under $10,000,000?

[cDnStealth]

So, someone help me out here since the Flames' site doesn't seem to be working. In the CSEC proposal are the Flames only putting up 50M of the 275M they say they're willing to pay towards the arena? It sounds like the majority of their contribution is coming from the CRL but how does the CRL work exactly?

[Reneeee]

Originally Posted by Parallex

No no no... you said it was the top priority. Not behind all the stuff that's truly important... the top.

I never wrote that. What I wrote was top of the list... Let's break this down for somebody who can misunderstand things..

A list is a form of measurement to quantify what factors something might have. I did say top of my list not first priority....the list could be 5 items or it could be 10. Don't misconstrue what I've written to fit your one sided narrative.

It's funny this mob mentality this forum has that people seem to enjoy piling on criticism. Not once has anybody understood what I meant, they just want to call me a bad husband and that my family is suffering.

The only people suffering are anybody who has to step inside the dump that is the saddledome.

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