Explosion at Ariana Grande Concert in England

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Amazing. Flames in 07's moral confusion manages to rival Snuffleupagus's regular confusion.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by peter12

Growing up in the United Kingdom - one of the wealthiest, safest countries in the world? Most immigrants, and their children, stick around because even with all the hardships caused by racism etc... it is still a heck of a lot better than the place they came from. That is why they immigrated.

You can blame "root causes" all you want, but I think you are missing the most obvious one.

Cool story. U.K. Is nicer than Syria. I'll note that down. So why does the recruiting work? Thats what is important to talk about.

[PepsiFree]

I'm not even sure the point of Flames in 07's mission here. Talking serious Islam with a white nationalist supporter who is letting a Brietbart-level understanding of Sharia law and Muslims in general dictate his entire worldview is far down my list of "things that sound fun on Sunday night."

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I'm not even sure the point of Flames in 07's mission here. Talking serious Islam with a white nationalist supporter who is letting a Brietbart-level understanding of Sharia law and Muslims in general dictate his entire worldview is far down my list of "things that sound fun on Sunday night."

Maybe you would care to enlighten the group?

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Amazing. Flames in 07's moral confusion manages to rival Snuffleupagus's regular confusion.

I have no idea what you are referring to but to be clear, I don't like any religion. It creates groupthink in the worst way. It's basically imaginary friends for adults and I bet if you did an I.q. test the in of those who are not religious and those that are very religious you'd could drive a truck through the gap.

This all started because snuffle who to me is a closet racist is acting it out by blaming an imam who reported this guy, and somehow that wasn't enough.

These terror attacks are awful , but more people die in senseless ways in Canada by non radicalized people and nobody cooks up an argument to blame an entire race or religion argument when a catholic idiot kills someone. The attention of the simple are pointed in the wrong direction.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

There's problems everywhere, it just makes snuffle et al feel better about themselves to blame on a different group.

Please! I don't feel anything but sadness when anyone is murdered.

I see you're still having problems answering my earlier question.

What other "group" of people on earth besides Muslims are murdering people in the masses?

[photon]

I'm not sure a mosque hosting homophobic and anti-semitic speakers counts as a radical environment ideal for fostering suicide bombers. That literally describes every single Christian church I've been a member of since I was 7 years old, except one.

I do think the environment facilitates extreme opinions, or at the very least places fewer obstacles in the way to developing extreme opinions, but I think there's a lot more that contributes to a person getting to the point where they'll take such extreme actions.

The society around them must play a role. Even a cult born out of Christianity knows the first thing to do to get a person deeper is to isolate them from society.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Please! I don't feel anything but sadness when anyone is murdered.

I see you're still having problems answering my earlier question.

What other "group" of people on earth besides Muslims are murdering people in the masses?

All groups are! Just not 29 at a time so it doesn't get the attention. Your amazing at ignoring the vast majority of a point, nibble off a small piece of a post and allow that to change the direction of an argument. I'm done with you on this topic. I like disagreeing to flush out what is driving people's points but it's clear to me you just hate a certain group. Period.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

This all started because snuffle who to me is a closet racist is acting it out by blaming an imam who reported this guy, and somehow that wasn't enough.

Lol, now I'm a racist? Islam isn't a race!

Point me where I blamed the imam who reported this guy, If you could read I said imam's need to start denouncing the BS that spreading threw Islam.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Lol, now I'm a racist? Islam isn't a race!

Point me where I blamed the imam who reported this guy, If you could read I said imam's need to start denouncing the BS that spreading threw Islam.

You have a higher standard for him. He didn't do enough by simply reporting him.

There can be an intelligent conversation about how isis is successful in getting to people, and instead many people just yell out, those damn muslims are the problem. Ironically helping with the recruiting process. I'm done have a good night.

[PepsiFree]

How many Christian ministers spend time talking about what Christianity specifically condemns.

Christian leaders, like Muslims leaders, teach through how a good person ought to be and rarely take the focus of what you shouldn't be doing as the primary example. Most (not all) mainstream religious leaders teach love and compassion, not "Don't murder!"

Some people don't understand that by not teaching what ISIL preaches, and by teaching something that inspires a different path, they condemn it in a more powerful way. So to say "they need to condemn _____ in Islam" is foolish. Teaching the best way to live has the same effect and teaching how to identify its opposite.

To make it plainly stupid, saying "don't eat that food" is incredibly less compelling than offering a different, more alluring option. Neither way guarantees the person won't eat the food you don't want them to eat, but giving them a fantastic incentive to chose something different raises your chances considerably.

[nik-]

Perhaps that alternate condemnation isn't as powerful as you think.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by nik-

Perhaps that alternate condemnation isn't as powerful as you think.

It's a pretty basic psychological principle I believe. Applies to the legal system as well, as incentive not to commit crime is more powerful than large punishments like the death penalty.

No system/teaching, religious or otherwise, is 100% effective.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Lol, now I'm a racist? Islam isn't a race!

Point me where I blamed the imam who reported this guy, If you could read I said imam's need to start denouncing the BS that spreading threw Islam.

Imams do denounce it. All. The. Time. They work with law enforcement, kick these guys out, etc. What more will you have them do?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Apparently it needs to be pointed out again that's if you gave this survey exclusively to members of Al Qaeda, roughly 100% of them would have an overwhelmingly negative view of ISIS. That doesn't suggest that they're moderates.

I'm not suggesting this is a be all comment on the opinions of Muslims, but we'll continue to talk over each other if we ignore basic facts like the fact that more than an insignificant number of Muslims believe in some horrid stuff. Converting from Islam is still condemned by death in too many places with a good support by their citizens

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by photon

I'm not sure a mosque hosting homophobic and anti-semitic speakers counts as a radical environment ideal for fostering suicide bombers. That literally describes every single Christian church I've been a member of since I was 7 years old, except one.

I do think the environment facilitates extreme opinions, or at the very least places fewer obstacles in the way to developing extreme opinions, but I think there's a lot more that contributes to a person getting to the point where they'll take such extreme actions.

The society around them must play a role. Even a cult born out of Christianity knows the first thing to do to get a person deeper is to isolate them from society.

That's really messed up. What kind of churches are these?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by photon

I'm not sure a mosque hosting homophobic and anti-semitic speakers counts as a radical environment ideal for fostering suicide bombers. That literally describes every single Christian church I've been a member of since I was 7 years old, except one.

I do think the environment facilitates extreme opinions, or at the very least places fewer obstacles in the way to developing extreme opinions, but I think there's a lot more that contributes to a person getting to the point where they'll take such extreme actions.

The society around them must play a role. Even a cult born out of Christianity knows the first thing to do to get a person deeper is to isolate them from society.

I'm certainly not here to pick a fight with you Photon, but I'm curious about the churches that you attended.

Frankly when I was younger and up until I was a young adult, I regularly went to church, and I moved from city to city and even country to country and I can't ever recall a sermon, or Sunday school lesson that preached the type of hate or anti-homosexuality context that your talking about. I can't remember it even being discussed at church functions between parishioners or having members bringing it up during one on one discussions.

I do remember a lot of sermons on sin and forgiveness and Jesus being about love and acceptance. I remember a lot of biblical stories about homosexuals burning in a lake of fire.

Obviously there are bad priests and preachers out there, we know that just like there are bad Imam's and spiritual leaders in all religions.

I attended churches in big towns like Calgary and Edmonton etc, and small towns that are in the Canadian bible belts like Lethbridge and Medicine Hat.

I even attended super churches in Dallas.

And I can't recall any hateful messages, chances are I would have left if I did.

Just to give context, I did leave the church behind for multiple reasons

1) The child abuse scandals. I couldn't be part of something so evil that was covered up and denied like it was.

2) It just wasn't addressing my personal definition of spirituality and my definition of my relationship with god for example

3) The handling of my brothers death. The story didn't come out for a long time, however the story behind why my brother couldn't be buried in the church's graveyard where my family attended blew my mind and finalized my decision to address a lot of questions and made me leave.

4) One day I woke up from a horrible dream where the separation of the church and state in the modern world didn't exist and the Vatican was the government.

But did I leave over hateful messages, or messages about the evils of homosexuality or members of other faiths? I can't say I did because I never heard it.

I guess the message is that there are good churches and bad churches, there are good mosques and bad mosques, there are good religious leaders, and there are bad religious leaders.

I theory and to me, the teachings of God or Christ or Allah don't make a lot of sense because they're interpreted by man. And as simple as it is to say that Priests and Imam's and other "holy men" have to denounce and defend the faith, its really up to the follows to question and analyze and really listen to and not blindly follow what they hear and see and read and that's how the faith gets defended and reformed.

The whole "Wait a minute, this is bulls%%%, no way Jesus wants me to blow up a abortion clinic, or no way does Allah want me to rape and kill or blow up a bunch of kids in his name.

I guess also because I'm rambling because its late. the Church always did obviously take a pro-life stance and was vehement that abortion was murder, and it took a long time for me to get past that argument.

Anyways its late, but I wanted to put in my two cents because there are a lot of blanket statements being used in religious arguments on this board and elsewhere.

Anyways Peace Out.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I'm not suggesting this is a be all comment on the opinions of Muslims, but we'll continue to talk over each other if we ignore basic facts like the fact that more than an insignificant number of Muslims believe in some horrid stuff. Converting from Islam is still condemned by death in too many places with a good support by their citizens

Yes, I know, I wasn't criticizing you or rebutting your point, which is in my view clearly correct. It's been clear for years, as far as I'm concerned, which is why it's frustrating when these debates renew themselves every time an event like this happens.

And yeah, Photon, in Canada those churches? I could see it in the southern USA, but really? I mean, sure, fifteen or twenty years ago it was far easier to find overt homophobia of the "these people can't be trusted with our children" sort among churchgoers, but not actually in church. When I was a kid there was a big brouhaha between the two local churches, one United and one Anglican, over whether gays should be openly supported or if it should be a "God loves you even though this isn't behaviour we condone" sort of approach, and this was in the 1990's. I recall many arguments involving the conservative wing of the family about it. Not that I've been to church in a long time for anything besides weddings, but I can't imagine it's become anything but more gay-friendly in the interim.

And I've never heard a word of anti-semitism interacting semi-regularly with devout protestants around my age; quite the opposite, as they all seem to be intractably pro-Israel.

[PsYcNeT]

Guys it's pretty obvious that if we want Muslims to stop supporting ISIS we should continue to demonize and vilify them as a group.

Can I say its great that anti-Muslim rhetoric has adopted Gays as their token group? Y'all are so inclusive.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Nobody asks, what are the conditions that allow for radicalized kids in the first place.

Are you joking? There are orgazinations entirely devoted to understanding the conditions of radicalization. And they've concluded that radical Islam is an essential element. You don't think there are young men of Indian Hindu origin who feel alienated in the UK? Or young men of Caribbean descent who face racism? And yet we don't see them blowing up concerts, restaurants, and subway cars.

The alienated looking for something to give meaning to their lives, and to focus their anger and resentment, find it radical Islam. The credos of radical Islam today transform that alienation, anger, and resentment into acts of mass violence. Those credos, and the sense of purpose they inspire, are deeply religious.

The West can never hope to understand Islamic State

How much does Islamic State actually believe this stuff? The assumption that it is a proxy for other concerns – born of US foreign policy, or social deprivation, or Islamophobia – comes naturally to commentators in the West. Partly this is because their instincts are often secular and liberal; partly it reflects a proper concern not to tar mainstream Islam with the brush of terrorism...

These are questions that sociologists, psychologists and security experts have all sought to answer. Wood, by asking Islamic State’s sympathisers to explain their motivation, demonstrates how Western society has become woefully unqualified to recognise the ecstatic highs that can derive from apocalyptic certitude. “The notion that religious belief is a minor factor in the rise of the Islamic State,” he observes, “is belied by a crushing weight of evidence that religion matters deeply to the vast majority of those who have travelled to fight.”