American Politics Thread: Orange is the new POTUS

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Honest question: What do you not like about Reagan?

In addition to what others have already mentioned, he was a complete hypocrite, he was previously the president of the screen actors guild, a role in which he supported numerous strikes, then when he became the POTUS he declared war on unions.

Honest question: What do you like about Reagan?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

In addition to what others have already mentioned, he was a complete hypocrite, he was previously the president of the screen actors guild, a role in which he supported numerous strikes, then when he became the POTUS he declared war on unions.

Honest question: What do you like about Reagan?

He also gets way too much adoration for the "Tear Down This Wall" speech. Gorbachev had already backed out of the Brezhnev Doctrine and created a climate for a peaceful German revolution.

Reagan's "Tear Down This Wall" speech was an attempt to look tough at a time when his administration was failing. Of course, the wall did come down and Reagan's supporters gave him credit as if him just saying to do made it happen. It was already happening.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Honest question: What do you not like about Reagan?

What was to like about Reagan? The hypocrisy of the mythos is enough to make you puke. Conservatives hold Reagan up as this great leader and being responsible for so many great things that have become tenets of conservative dogma. Too bad that reality doesn't hold up. Try these on for size.

We don't negotiate with terrorists. Oh, Reagan negotiated with terrorists alright. He actually committed treason in doing so. Ronald Reagan negotiated with the Iranians through a secret back channel for the release of the hostages held at the American embassy. He did this while he was a private citizen, undermining the efforts of the Carter administration.

Tax cutter extraordinaire. Yes, Reagan cut taxes in his first budget, and in a huge way. The rich never got richer under any other President. But Reagan also raised taxes in each of his subsequent budgets, and primarily on the backs of the middle class and poor.

No deficit spending. Reagan was the King of deficit spending. He ran up more crippling debt than any other President. All of those trillions of dollars he borrowed to build up the military were all put on the government credit card, and at interest rates ranging from 16-18%. As a country it will take a century to pay for what he borrowed because of the interest being accrued.

Small government conservative. One of the biggest lies told about Reagan. Reagan's expansion of the military was the largest contributors to the size of government in US history. He also dramatically increased the numbers of fed workers to support the behemoth he had created.

Tax cuts create jobs. This bull#### was started under Reagan and continues to be promoted today. After Reagan's 1981 budget unemployment soared to almost 10%. Tax cuts do not spurn economic growth. Reaganomics was a complete bust, and even his own administration admitted that. H.W. Bush called Reaganomics Voodoo Economics because he knew what that smell was coming from the White House. The only thing that created a boom during the Reagan years was the money he poured into the industrial military complex.

Anti-wealth transfer. Reagan was a huge proponent of wealth transfer, just not the way conservatives like to talk about it. Conservatives are all against transfers from the rich to the poor, but they don't say a word about the other way. Reagan's budgets were total wealth transfers, moving money from the middle class and giving it to the rich.

Reagan won the cold war. Total fabrication on the part of conservatives. Afghanistan won the cold war for the west. The Soviet foray into Afghanistan coupled with three consecutive crop failures ended up bleeding the Soviet economy dry and bringing an end to the Soviet Union. Agriculture failures were the primary driver, but the Soviets' attempts to take over Afghanistan was the final nail in the coffin.

Strong military leader. Reagan was the original cut-and-runner. When the Marine barracks in Beirut were bombed, Reagan pulled all troops out and went home. Reagan was good at rattling the sabre, and almost started a thermonuclear WWIII, but he really was a military weakling. Looking for a decisive military victory to pump up his legacy he launched the invasion of Grenada.

Reagan was a great thinker and truth teller. Reagan was a total puppet who was effective at delivering whatever speech was put in front of him. His mind was completely gripped by Alzheimer's disease by time he earned his second term. Whether it was the dementia talking Reagan was the original liar in chief, coming up with lies like "Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do" and "Mt. St. Helens was responsible for the release of all the sulfur dioxide in the atmosphere, not industrialization and automobiles." Reagan was almost Trumpian in his ability to lie convincingly, prompting Larry Speakes to coin the phrase, "If you tell a lie five times it become true."

The War on drugs. Reagan started us down this road, but he didn't believe in it at all. He continued to bloat budgets for the military and law enforcement in battling this "war" all the while working directly against it importing drugs and selling them to fund allies in Latin America.

Reagan was the standard bearer for American decency. Reagan and his administration were as dirty as the day is long. From starting with negotiating with terrorists, to funding illegal arms deals by importing and selling drugs, to raiding the Social Security Administration of funds, his administration was crooked. The rules never applied to these guys and they got caught repeatedly. I can't imagine how this would have played out for a Democrat.

Reagan was tough on immigration. Yeah, not true at all. Reagan granted amnesty to 3 million illegals, which allowed for a flood of immigrants from other nations.

Reagan was great strategist. No, not at all. Reagan, and his administration, we all about the now and never considered the blowback for their actions. Reagan was all about scoring immediate wins, but didn't think about where his moves would lead the nation. His support of mujaheddin in Afghanistan gave birth to the Taliban, Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

The myth and the legacy of Reagan just don't stack up. Reagan was a fraud and so is the majority of what people believe about him.

[Fuzz]

^
Nice hair, though.

[calumniate]

Just not ready

[Kjesse]

I'm not going to say Reagan was a great president but I'll take him over Trump any day. The world was in far more turmoil then that it is now, the difference being we didn't have 24/7 fake news broadcasts then to amplify the problems.

Say what you will about his policies and trickle down economics, I can understand resistance to that, and you can call the end of the cold war under his presidency a fluke, but he did preside over the fall of the Berlin Wall. Give the guy credit where its due even if you think a sock puppet in the office would have achieved the same result.

I was too young to really understand at the time, but I do remember that interest rates were high--- people had mortgages approaching 15 to 20% and that was the prime rate. The dropping of interest rates is why we're now all living in $500K homes not $80K homes.

The bank bailout was probably the worst thing he did... that was a wealth transfer from poor to the rich, but things might have been worse had the bailout not happened. There would have been some immediate pain but overall I think you have to sometimes go through that to fix economic imbalance.

His policies were in general pragmatic and put the USA on track to remain a market economy not a regulated one (other than the S&L issue above). The economic dominance of the USA that followed was at least contributed to by "Reagomics"... it worked at the time but might not be the best idea now.

[dino7c]

Dems getting cocky again...you think the last election would have humbled them a bit

watch another ass kicking in 2018 even after all this nonsense

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Dems getting cocky again...you think the last election would have humbled them a bit

watch another ass kicking in 2018 even after all this nonsense

Really? Not seeing that at all. Democrats that I know are scared ####less that another debacle could take place. There is very little trust in the party right now, and people are demanding new blood. The election of Tom Perez has supporters on the Democrat side shaking their heads. Rahm Emanuel (not representative of the Dem voter) suggested another Clinton run and it has liberals spitting nails.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Dems getting cocky again...you think the last election would have humbled them a bit

watch another ass kicking in 2018 even after all this nonsense

Where is this?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Delgar

Say what you will about his policies and trickle down economics, I can understand resistance to that, and you can call the end of the cold war under his presidency a fluke, but he did preside over the fall of the Berlin Wall. Give the guy credit where its due even if you think a sock puppet in the office would have achieved the same result.

The demolition of the Berlin Wall and subsequent German unification occurred in 1989-1992, when George H. W. Bush was president. So no, Reagan did not preside over the fall of the Berlin Wall.

[direwolf]

As expected, Trump is in a pissy mood this morning over the Kushner stuff. So much FAKE NEWS!

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account
@realDonaldTrump

It is my opinion that many of the leaks coming out of the White House are fabricated lies made up by the #FakeNews media.

5:33 AM - 28 May 2017

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account
@realDonaldTrump

Whenever you see the words 'sources say' in the fake news media, and they don't mention names....

5:34 AM - 28 May 2017

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account
@realDonaldTrump

....it is very possible that those sources don't exist but are made up by fake news writers. #FakeNews is the enemy!

5:45 AM - 28 May 2017

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account
@realDonaldTrump

Does anyone notice how the Montana Congressional race was such a big deal to Dems & Fake News until the Republican won? V was poorly covered

5:45 AM - 28 May 2017

[Lanny_McDonald]

This from a guy who loves to use "people are saying" in almost everything he says.

[HockeyIlliterate]

Surprised that no one has mentioned Reagan's complete failure to address the AIDS crisis until his friend, Rock Hudson, died of the disease (and, even then, his efforts were extremely limited). Many, many people died in part to Reagan's (and certain of his supporters) moral views.

[DuffMan]

The transfer of money going to the rich started under Reagan

[kerriffic]

Lol saw on Twitter courtesy of @adamparkhomenko - "this is the image Trump has given himself and the United States to the rest of the world"

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[peter12]

Originally Posted by kerriffic

Lol saw on Twitter courtesy of @adamparkhomenko - "this is the image Trump has given himself and the United States to the rest of the world"

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

I don't really see the humour in this kind of stuff anymore. We are on a constant satirical news cycle now, and it is tiring. I guess it is for kind of dumb people to feel good about kind of following current events without having to put actual work into understanding what is happening, and why.

Personally, I didn't think Trump had a bad trip, and a lot of what he said to NATO and the G7 actually had a pretty significant impact.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by peter12

I don't really see the humour in this kind of stuff anymore. We are on a constant satirical news cycle now, and it is tiring. I guess it is for kind of dumb people to feel good about kind of following current events without having to put actual work into understanding what is happening, and why.

Personally, I didn't think Trump had a bad trip, and a lot of what he said to NATO and the G7 actually had a pretty significant impact.

Ok so it's not exactly an article about eating poor Irish children, but satire like the kind we're seeing in the wake of The Donald is still effective and, at very least, gives people a laugh. Sure there are some dumb people that enjoy it, but I'm sure there are an equal number of dumb people saying "I'm tired of that, Trump did a good job today!"

As always, twitter and other forms of social media are catered to you, specifically, because they're ultimately customizable. You'd have to be a special kind to have seen this thread from day one and not realised that 90% of its purpose is a satirical/mocking look at the presidency day by day.

Instead of calling other people dumb for enjoying the memes, why don't you start a conversation about why you thought Trump had an impact during this trip?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Ok so it's not exactly an article about eating poor Irish children, but satire like the kind we're seeing in the wake of The Donald is still effective and, at very least, gives people a laugh. Sure there are some dumb people that enjoy it, but I'm sure there are an equal number of dumb people saying "I'm tired of that, Trump did a good job today!"

As always, twitter and other forms of social media are catered to you, specifically, because they're ultimately customizable. You'd have to be a special kind to have seen this thread from day one and not realised that 90% of its purpose is a satirical/mocking look at the presidency day by day.

Instead of calling other people dumb for enjoying the memes, why don't you start a conversation about why you thought Trump had an impact during this trip?

For exactly the reasons you described in your preceding paragraph.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by peter12

For exactly the reasons you described in your preceding paragraph.

You were too busy eating poor Irish children? I don't know, I'm kind of dumb, you'll have to spell it out for me. Use small words.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

You were too busy eating poor Irish children? I don't know, I'm kind of dumb, you'll have to spell it out for me. Use small words.

I believe that the entire Western political order is basically a mess right now. You have a kind of bro mentality mixed with a technocratic one. Both of them represent a political system which is growing increasingly conservative and fragile in structure, and composition.

Trump is obviously the most troublesome outcome of this system. As a populist elected to lead the world's most powerful democracy on the platform of "I will win more! I will manage better," his only effective approach to other global leaders is disdain and rejection.

This is obviously the same approach taken by other leaders when dealing with Trump.

The ONLY aspect I liked about Trump's comments on NATO were that they - albeit clumsily - described the growing hypocrisy in the alliance where one country essentially subsidizes the defence of other countries. This is not really a new complaint coming out of the United States. As everyone knows, Barack Obama and GW Bush were also loud proponents of the idea that NATO members must meet defense spending requirements.

In the case of Russia, if all countries agree that it is at the very least a territorial or regional threat to the eastern members of NATO, then countries like Germany should have something more than 200 operational tanks, especially since the US can no longer afford to keep their own armour in the country.