[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Even if they were gifted an arena, I doubt they make as much money as they would in Calgary. Seahawks are gods to those people, and when the Mariners are doing well, it's a baseball town.

In general, it is a great sports town with a huge backing to bring other sports teams in.

Some say they are happy Nenshi is not like the previous guy who had developer buddies he did favors for. Nenshi did his best to do favors for his very high up cab company buddies in the battle with uber and whole cab license mess. At the end of the day, just about any mayor is going to have their favorites and I was a strong Nenshi supporter in the early days but believe his horse has grown too high.

If we ran a survey I would be willing to wager than 75% of votes would be in favor of SOME tax payer funding. Let's call it 10% tax payer money which would be paid back through the economy in a handful of years. Nenshi claims the results would be 0%.

I wish it was an argument about the city offering up 12% of the cost and the flames wanting 30% and trying to bridge the gap but to have Nenshi take the stance he has is wrong IMO.

[MarkGio]

I would still follow the Flames franchise if they moved. Let's be honest, new arena or not, only around 20-25K get to benefit from the Flames product in person, the rest have to watch it on TV or online. So for us not in the arena, we're still watching them on TV if they're playing in Calgary, Iqaluit, or anywhere in between. If you love the game that much, you'll watch it regardless. There's a difference between the value of a hockey product, and the value of 25 thousand citizens eligible for a BRANDED hockey product only 41 times a year (not including lock-outs and playoffs).

The arena should make sense for the city as a whole (ie, concerts, monster jam, etc) regardless of the Flames franchise. That's the deal you make as any city in the world that doesn't have a sports franchise. Because ultimately the city could build its arena and some billionaire could pay the relocation fee anyways. The last arena is only 34 years old, so what, every three to four decades Calgarians are suppose to cough up one-third of its annual budget to profit a few billionaires and to keep a keep a small percentage of citizens happy?!? That is some silver spoon #### people.

There's over a million citizens being represented by Nenshi, not just 25 thousand. I don't blame him for playing hardball because his job is to:

1) Ensuring Calgarians are getting due process
2) Ensuring Calgarians are getting the best deal possible
3) Ensuring Calgarians are being negotiated with in good faith

And lastly, his job is to walk away from a bad deal. Seriously people, imagine how you'd feel if Nenshi and council members took the first deal negotiated, lined their own pockets with some profit, and didn't even think about the citizens. Finally, government officials are doing their job and putting THEIR PEOPLE before BUSINESS and THEMSELVES. That's literally what your tax dollars are paying them to do, and now you're complaining that they're doing it, when even MORE of your tax dollars are at stake?!?

Some of you people are too dumb to know what's best. You deserve be governed and controlled.

[JiriHrdina]

That last sentence is incredibly arrogant and insulting.

[Locke]

And again, I dont think Nenshi at any point has said that there will be no taxpayer money available, I sincerely believe there will be, and that is okay, we do generate some benefit from the Flames.

Its the 'how much' that really becomes the issue.

CalgaryNEXT was the Flames going for the 'Oilers Deal' for both the Flames and the Stamps. It was just wild.

I have no problem with some public dollars going into the project, none whatsoever, depending on the terms.

Originally Posted by monkeyman

yeah, why worry about people fleeing from war and the prospect of death when we can have Taylor Swift concerts.

If you want to see people flee in terror then a Taylor Swift concert is the place for you!

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

Nenshi did his best to do favors for his very high up cab company buddies in the battle with uber and whole cab license mess.

Was there any proof of this or this just personal opinion? Many cities went through the same battle Calgary did with Uber. What about Nenshi makes you think he's friends with the taxi companies?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Bunk

You guys need to chill out a bit. Just very predictable posturing and drama before things come to a head.

For Nenshi's part, him suggesting CalgaryNEXT is dead is merely stating the obvious - and pushing the conversation finally to what the City is really talking about, which is Plan B. Read the re-cast City budget and this fact is hiding in plain sight.

In fact calling CalgaryNEXT dead 18 months after it was introduced is probably being too charitable. The thing was dead on arrival. Council kept it alive way, way too long following the scathing feasibility report.

Ken King's comment, while annoying and probably sloppily delivered ultimately is not new information, just simple posturing.

I think the City knows what it is prepared to do, if I were them, I'd put it out there for public consumption soon. Put the ball back in the Flames' court. I think that's what happens in the next 6 weeks.

I think Plan A (and that's what we need to start calling it) gets done before the start of next season, so August/September. Could have the new building up and running for the 2020-2021 season. I will guess the city kicks in between $90-100 million for improving everything in the surrounding area and integrating transit. And I think ultimately most people are cool with that. I just hope they don't try and use a playoff run to push CalgaryNEXT again.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

If I can just add something here, for me, it's about why public funds should or should not go to a private enterprise in exchange for equity or compensation in the form of return of capital..

I have yet to hear a financial motivation for the tax payers of the city of calgary for this.

What is the economic incentive to do this for anyone but the Flames?

As I said earlier maybe a public bond issue that provides a slight return on capital too.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Plenty of studies out there show the economic benefit is negligible at best. I think there's more of an argument in it increasing quality of life. Once you start looking into the economics, it's almost always a crappy investment for the public.

Yup. Public funding for sporting venues is probably one of the greatest dupe jobs pulled by billionaire owners in the past 75 years.

There is no way in hell I would agree to stick taxpayer funds into the direct construction cost of a new building. Perhaps you give them the land for free, or help them with other things, but direct construction cost should be paid by the deep-pocketed owners, and not the taxpayers.

If they want to pass on the cost via a surcharge or a user fee, fine.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Was there any proof of this or this just personal opinion? Many cities went through the same battle Calgary did with Uber. What about Nenshi makes you think he's friends with the taxi companies?

The camera footage of him in a Uber in another city & how quickly that was swept under the rug and the extended battle Uber had with the city compared to other cities.

As for cab licenses, I would have to dig it up but I recall many taxi drivers bringing up how corrupt it was with who got them and how much they sold for.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by rumy

The 9 Garth Brooks concerts pumped $42 million into the edmonton economy as reported by Metro. This is the kind of money available to the city as a whole with a new arena.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did that $42 million actually go back into the economy, or did it get paid back to Garth Brooks?

Obviously I understand that a massive sporting arena can lead to some great development in surrounding areas, but lets not kid ourselves, funding billion dollar arenas with taxpayer money is all about helping the rich get richer.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by jammies

The Flames sat around almost a decade "planning" a new arena, then came up with a ludicrous, amateur proposal like some kind of third rate organization from Edmonton. Now that this proposal is rejected, it's time for threats - amateur hour threats, of course, as is the reigning style.

Are the Flames going to forfeit that sweet sweet Rogers TV money to move to America? When does that deal run out, 2026? What was it, 5 billion over 12 years over 7 teams, or around 60 million per team per year? Yeah, they are going to move to Seattle to sell a dozen more suites at a million a pop and get the next Beyonce tour. That sounds like good business. Go for it.

TV deals don't matter since the revenue is split among all teams, no?

Otherwise you make valid points.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I would still follow the Flames franchise if they moved. Let's be honest, new arena or not, only around 20-25K get to benefit from the Flames product in person, the rest have to watch it on TV or online. So for us not in the arena, we're still watching them on TV if they're playing in Calgary, Iqaluit, or anywhere in between. If you love the game that much, you'll watch it regardless. There's a difference between the value of a hockey product, and the value of 25 thousand citizens eligible for a BRANDED hockey product only 41 times a year (not including lock-outs and playoffs).

The arena should make sense for the city as a whole (ie, concerts, monster jam, etc) regardless of the Flames franchise. That's the deal you make as any city in the world that doesn't have a sports franchise. Because ultimately the city could build its arena and some billionaire could pay the relocation fee anyways. The last arena is only 34 years old, so what, every three to four decades Calgarians are suppose to cough up one-third of its annual budget to profit a few billionaires and to keep a keep a small percentage of citizens happy?!? That is some silver spoon #### people.

There's over a million citizens being represented by Nenshi, not just 25 thousand. I don't blame him for playing hardball because his job is to:

1) Ensuring Calgarians are getting due process
2) Ensuring Calgarians are getting the best deal possible
3) Ensuring Calgarians are being negotiated with in good faith

And lastly, his job is to walk away from a bad deal. Seriously people, imagine how you'd feel if Nenshi and council members took the first deal negotiated, lined their own pockets with some profit, and didn't even think about the citizens. Finally, government officials are doing their job and putting THEIR PEOPLE before BUSINESS and THEMSELVES. That's literally what your tax dollars are paying them to do, and now you're complaining that they're doing it, when even MORE of your tax dollars are at stake?!?

Some of you people are too dumb to know what's best. You deserve be governed and controlled.

It isn't just 25k people who benefit.

Think of how busy the nightlife scene is after a flames game on a Friday or Saturday compared to a non flames game. Think of the business that thrive on 20k people moving on and looking for something else to do for the night. Think of the other 50k who get together with friends to go watch a game because they are big time fans. Sure some people may get together to watch the "seattle flames" at a pub but the aspect of it being the local team brings people out more than not having a local team.
And not all 20k are season ticket holders.... hundreds of thousands of unique faces go through the doors, not the same 20k each night.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by DJones

Except land and infrastructure. They built a road and extended the public transit out there.

Which is an acceptable compromise in my opinion. Do whatever the hell it takes to make sure it works, but no public money for the building itself.

[streetglide]

Great timing King. Way to take the shine off the on ice product. FFS. I thought our ownership group didn't do things like this? Weren't they too classy for these type of antics? Smells alot like edmonton.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

The camera footage of him in a Uber in another city & how quickly that was swept under the rug and the extended battle Uber had with the city compared to other cities.

As for cab licenses, I would have to dig it up but I recall many taxi drivers bringing up how corrupt it was with who got them and how much they sold for.

The corruption with cab licenses was long before Nenshi, that's been a problem for decades. IIRC he was the first mayor to genuinely attempt to deal with it.

As for the Uber video, that seemed more in line with how he deals with every political issue, the Flames arena battle being a great example, not specific to Uber or being friendly to cab companies.

That's a pretty damning statement you made about Nenshi, so I hoped you'd have more than speculation.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Was there any proof of this or this just personal opinion? Many cities went through the same battle Calgary did with Uber. What about Nenshi makes you think he's friends with the taxi companies?

He's Muslim and brown so he had to have taxi buddies high up....even though what he was asking from Uber was totally reasonable and the taxi industry has totally crumbled in Calgary while he was in power.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by Bunk

You guys need to chill out a bit. Just very predictable posturing and drama before things come to a head.

For Nenshi's part, him suggesting CalgaryNEXT is dead is merely stating the obvious - and pushing the conversation finally to what the City is really talking about, which is Plan B. Read the re-cast City budget and this fact is hiding in plain sight.

In fact calling CalgaryNEXT dead 18 months after it was introduced is probably being too charitable. The thing was dead on arrival. Council kept it alive way, way too long following the scathing feasibility report.

Ken King's comment, while annoying and probably sloppily delivered ultimately is not new information, just simple posturing.

I think the City knows what it is prepared to do, if I were them, I'd put it out there for public consumption soon. Put the ball back in the Flames' court. I think that's what happens in the next 6 weeks.

This seems a very reasonable and level headed statement on the situation to me. Think I'm just going to believe this viewpoint and ignore the rest for sanity purposes.

[Ducay]

As Bunk said, both sides are just playing their hands as they should. Like any good negotiator, you don't lead with your middle ground offer.

Flames have played their "so bad its gotta be a joke proposal" and "leaving town" cards, and the city has responded in kind.

They will land on a middle ground of funding at a location in Victoria park that everyone can live with. Flames owners are smart enough to know a fancy arena with no fan base is worthless. They won't move, guaranteed.

[CroFlames]

Out of pure curiosity, who funded Commonwealth stadium, and then the subsequent renovation? Surely it wasn't the owners of the Esks.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by Azure

Which is an acceptable compromise in my opinion. Do whatever the hell it takes to make sure it works, but no public money for the building itself.

Is this not fair...

If the city offered to
- clean up the site on the west village
- provide the land at a significantly reduced cost
- provide the required roadways and infrastructure around the complex

The flames ownership offered to
- build a state of the art fieldhouse and arena and plenty of parking that could double for arena/stadium parking as well as park and ride given the shortage of downtown parking with the city profiting on the parking.