So you're against throwing away hundreds of millions on an arena, but in favour of throwing away billions (possibly tens of billions) on the Olympics?
It sounds as if your problem with CalgaryNEXT is that it was not wasteful enough.
No, that isn't what I am saying.
I was never really got on board with CalgaryNExt for any reason, though the concept of having it as 'just not another arena, but something really spectacular' I did like. Let's just get that out of the way. I just never really got on board.
However, I am ok with the Olympics if it IS NOT A WASTE OF BILLIONS. Calgary is still using a lot of the infrastructure that was built for the Olympics - including transit, some overpasses, some buildings, etc. There was a lot more being built for the Olympics than just an arena.
IF (and again, IF) there is the possibility of having the Olympics pay-off a lot of infrastructure (infrastructure that could be used long-term to enhance Calgary in many ways other than JUST an arena), then yes, I would definitely be on board with that.
If it is 'wasting millions of dollars' - then of course not. I also know you knew what I meant by that, and that it wasn't a matter of wasting millions.
I love architecture, and I love seeing big projects go up in the city. I was probably more ok with public money being spent on it earlier on than I am now, but a lot of good points have been made in the last couple of years and I find myself firmly entrenched in the 'no' side for now.
I do think an arena will go up, I do think it will be nice, and I bet there will be some public money going into it - probably more than it should. Doesn't stop me from being on the 'no' side for now, even though I very much hope something really nice does get built.
Better check your facts Alberta Beef, nobody at the City refused to give a dime. Here's what Nenshi said and it looks like he left the door open for the CSEC to come back with a proposal that has public benefit, and if that's the case they'll consider giving dollars:
“The thing about a new arena project – and I’ll use those terms because CalgaryNext, the West Village, is dead – but the thing about a new arena project is that our first criterion has always been public money for public benefits,” Nenshi said. “So, it really is up to the Calgary Sports and Entertainment [Corporation] to figure out what the public benefit is.”
If Nenshi had said "We'll never give money to those billionaires they can build their own damn arena" then that would be bargaining in bad faith. Half the people in this (and hte other) thread that are upset about Nenshi grandstanding seem to think that's what he's said.
He was very outspoken about not using public money for an arena from the very start. Here is a quote from 2014:
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"I've said many, many times that I don't believe in public funds going after private money," said Nenshi. "As soon as they buy the land I would be happy to expedite the development process."
Negotiations started long before his most recent quotes.
Stances like his originally are every bit "bad faith negotiating" as the Flames looking at relocation possibilities.
Perhaps you should be the one to check your facts.
However, I am ok with the Olympics if it IS NOT A WASTE OF BILLIONS. Calgary is still using a lot of the infrastructure that was built for the Olympics - including transit, some overpasses, some buildings, etc. There was a lot more being built for the Olympics than just an arena.
The Sochi Games cost $51 billion. It's highly questionable whether the entire city of Sochi and everything in it is worth that much money. Unquestionably billions were wasted.
Pyeongchang is budgeted at about $10 billion, but that number looks set to increase. And the people saddled with the heaviest burden are not happy about it:
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Gangwon province, which governs Pyeongchang, has been struggling with debt as it builds facilities for the Olympics. It has spent more than 1.68 trillion won ($1.5 billion) won on a ski resort that will be a main Olympic venue and still has to build eight more facilities, including the stadium for the opening and closing ceremonies, and new roads to connect them.
The Gangwon provincial council and the county councils of Pyeongchang, Gangneung and Jeongseon recently issued a joint statement threatening to give up the rights to host the Olympics if the central government doesn’t commit to more financial support.
It looks as if a lot of South Koreans are worried about billions being wasted, too.
Looking ahead to 2022, the Beijing committee claims to be working with a budget of $3.9 billion; but this would appear to be a pipe dream, as they are dealing with issues that no previous Winter Games ever faced – such as putting all the ski and snowboard events in a location without reliable snow cover. If they do come in under budget, it will be because they make massive use of facilities built for the 2012 Olympics – which cost $43 billion.
Calgary, needless to say, does not have that advantage. Most of the facilities left over from the 1988 Games are no longer up to Olympic standards, either because the facilities have deteriorated or (most often) because the standards have risen. We would face billions in new construction costs, much of it to replace facilities that are fully adequate for our local needs but not grand enough to suit the IOC.
To give you an idea of the gap: Pyeongchang is spending $78 million on a temporary 50,000-seat stadium, which will be dismantled after the 2018 Games. This structure is being built for the opening and closing ceremonies, and to serve as the medal plaza in between. Calgary in 2026 would have to do something similar; if we offered to use McMahon Stadium for these purposes, the IOC would laugh themselves into seizures. The building isn't big enough, and has none of the luxurious appointments that the Olympic brass expect to be made available for VIPs.
There are only two ways for the City of Calgary to come out of the 2026 Winter Games without massive debt. One is to stick the other levels of government with that debt, for which they will have little appetite. The other is not to host the Games at all.
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Last edited by Jay Random; 03-30-2017 at 02:11 AM.
The Sochi Games cost $51 billion. It's highly questionable whether the entire city of Sochi and everything in it is worth that much money. Unquestionably billions were wasted.
Pyeongchang is budgeted at about $10 billion, but that number looks set to increase. And the people saddled with the heaviest burden are not happy about it:
It looks as if a lot of South Koreans are worried about billions being wasted, too.
Looking ahead to 2022, the Beijing committee claims to be working with a budget of $3.9 billion; but this would appear to be a pipe dream, as they are dealing with issues that no previous Winter Games ever faced – such as putting all the ski and snowboard events in a location without reliable snow cover. If they do come in under budget, it will be because they make massive use of facilities built for the 2012 Olympics – which cost $43 billion.
Calgary, needless to say, does not have that advantage. Most of the facilities left over from the 1988 Games are no longer up to Olympic standards, either because the facilities have deteriorated or (most often) because the standards have risen. We would face billions in new construction costs, much of it to replace facilities that are fully adequate for our local needs but not grand enough to suit the IOC.
To give you an idea of the gap: Pyeongchang is spending $78 million on a temporary 50,000-seat stadium, which will be dismantled after the 2018 Games. This structure is being built for the opening and closing ceremonies, and to serve as the medal plaza in between. Calgary in 2026 would have to do something similar; if we offered to use McMahon Stadium for these purposes, the IOC would laugh themselves into seizures. The building isn't big enough, and has none of the luxurious appointments that the Olympic brass expect to be made available for VIPs.
There are only two ways for the City of Calgary to come out of the 2026 Winter Games without massive debt. One is to stick the other levels of government with that debt, for which they will have little appetite. The other is not to host the Games at all.
Yeah just cause you picked some of the most expensive games out of the air for your comparisons doesn't mean Calgary would spend anywhere close to that. Vancouver cost 6.4 Billion.
Unless you intend on closing all of those facilities they're due for updates anyways.
I'll trust the bid exploration committee to come out with the proper costs and then there can be an informed decision.
Yeah just cause you picked some of the most expensive games out of the air for your comparisons doesn't mean Calgary would spend anywhere close to that. Vancouver cost 6.4 Billion.
Unless you intend on closing all of those facilities they're due for updates anyways.
I'll trust the bid exploration committee to come out with the proper costs and then there can be an informed decision.
I wouldn't say the last winter Olympics and the next winter Olympics are "pulled out of the air". They seem pretty relevant to me.
We've got better things to do with our money than spend it on bribing a bunch of aristocrats for the right to spend billions on short-term facilities that will meet their lofty standards and line their pockets. And then spending a bloody fortune putting up and ferrying around Saudi princes and other royalty at our expense so they can have a swell old time.
I'd love the Olympics to come back to Calgary, if it wasn't a scam run by a bunch of crooks.
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I just don't see how a mayor saying he doesn't believe in public dollars for a private enterprise is anything short of being a good public servant
I never said it wasn't being a good public servant, just like looking at other locations if you can't get a new and much needed facility is nothing short of smart business.
Yeah just cause you picked some of the most expensive games out of the air for your comparisons doesn't mean Calgary would spend anywhere close to that. Vancouver cost 6.4 Billion.
I didn't pick them out of the air. I picked the last Games, the Games now in preparation, and the next bid after that. 2014, 2018, 2022. Costs and the IOC have left the 2010 numbers far behind.
Even if you could bring in the Games for the same price Vancouver paid, $6.4 billion is a ridiculous sum of money to put up in order to satisfy some politicians' edifice complex and make the IOC even richer.
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Unless you intend on closing all of those facilities they're due for updates anyways.
None of those updates are budgeted for. Apparently the various levels of government don't agree with you about the urgency of the updates.
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I'll trust the bid exploration committee to come out with the proper costs and then there can be an informed decision.
The bid exploration committee has an incentive to underestimate the costs, because they will then have the inside track on all the jobs for the boys: the bid committee, and then the organizing committee itself.
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I would be supremely pissed if the Flames higher ups even hinted at moving because it would be an incrediblely offensive slap to the face from my point of view. It would not go over well as we all saw what happened to Daryl Katz foolish attempt in Seattle.
In terms of the feasibility of a relocation happening, I would absolutely call their bluff as Gary Bettman would never allow it. Just look at how hard he fought to keep the Coyotes of all teams in Arizona. You think Bettman would let a stable and profitable franchise move out of here? Not a chance! The poor optics and sheer agnst as a follow out would probably be enough to keep them from moving alone.
What happened to Katz? Didn't the move work and he got an extremely friendly deal from the government?
I remember it a lot differently. I remember him having to take out a full newspaper ad apologizing to the people of Edmonton because his very obvious threat of relocating the team backfired big time. It was bery embarrassing on his part and Murray Edwards and co will see the exact same consequences if they choose go down a similar path.
Even if it's a poor question, either answer it or don't. Don't see why all the fuss about the question. Nobody is forcing anyone to participate in the poll. If it's a relevant question to the OP then that's all that matters since it's not mandatory to answer it.
