[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Locke

There will be Public money in it.

I dont have a problem with that.

Its a matter of how much and what the terms are.

Personally, I'd be ok with "public money" going to:

• Having someone like CMLC masterplan an area vision (because frankly the Flames suck at it).
• Public Realm improvements around the arena/neighborhood.
• Public transit upgrades that can also be leveraged for non-arena uses.
• Assistance with management/processing.
• Perhaps some reasonable tax-breaks that don't put the City at risk.

I'm not really a fan of giving them land, because to me that's just basically giving them free money, that the City could use elsewhere.

[Kipper is King]

Ken King is giving the most awkward interview ever on The Score right now about negotiations with the city for a new arena. He started off with a Monty Python joke about choking a parrot. Tim and Sid (the show hosts) did not laugh.Also said (unless I misheard him, but I swear I didn't) "We're not anally retentive about Calgary Next" (versus the Plan B proposal).

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Life's too short to care man. If they want to use some of my tax dollars to build something that I want I really do not care at all. It's amazing that so many people want a new rink but aren't willing to help pay for it. I want the rink, and I'm willing to help pay. I also don't care if it's CalgaryNEXT or the plan B option in Victoria Park. Maybe that's a short-sighted and foolish line of thought, but that's just how I feel.

Originally Posted by 14

I want my tax dollars to be used to fund the new facility. 100% behind it.

When I see these types of posts, all I can think is....you guys are free to scratch the Flames a cheque anytime you'd like. In fact I guarantee they'll accept it. If you're so cool just giving your money to the Flames for the arena....why don't you? You basically think everyone should be conscripted to pay for it. Clearly many feel otherwise. I wonder how much those who don't care about tax money going to this could pool together. Maybe you guys can fund the arena since you care so little about throwing money towards this.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by KingMoo

how much was spent on the ugly bridge that i will never use and don't want to see? How much on that giant eye sore of an 'O' ? I would prefer if not a single one of my dollars went towards those overpriced monstrosities...

Large cities all over north america help their local teams build stadiums. Why would it be any different here?

Peace bridge cost the city $24.5M
-If you believe Ken King it would cost the city $200M not including creosote clean up
-If you believe the City it would cost 1.2B (tax payers on the hook for 2/3rs of 1.8B)

$200M would buy you a 8 peace bridges. $1.2B would buy you a Bow River completely covered in peace bridges (can somebody please photoshop that BTW)

The point I'm trying to illustrate is we're talking massively different orders of magnitude to fund an arena.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Life's too short to care man. If they want to use some of my tax dollars to build something that I want I really do not care at all. It's amazing that so many people want a new rink but aren't willing to help pay for it. I want the rink, and I'm willing to help pay. I also don't care if it's CalgaryNEXT or the plan B option in Victoria Park. Maybe that's a short-sighted and foolish line of thought, but that's just how I feel.

If you've ever complained about things like property taxes being high, hospital wait times being long, streets not being cleaned...you may want to care about your public money going into the bank account of a private business.

I'm sure the Flames love the way you think though.

[CorbeauNoir]

Isn't CJAY doing some Patreon drive for a new arena? People saying they're perfectly okay voluntarily throwing their cash at the project, the avenue exists for them to put their money where their mouth is.

What really throws me for a loop is that people are okay saddling a new arena project on top of the even bigger tax drain that'll happen being dragged into the IOC's ethical muck on an Olympics bid.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Life's too short to care man. If they want to use some of my tax dollars to build something that I want I really do not care at all. It's amazing that so many people want a new rink but aren't willing to help pay for it. I want the rink, and I'm willing to help pay. I also don't care if it's CalgaryNEXT or the plan B option in Victoria Park. Maybe that's a short-sighted and foolish line of thought, but that's just how I feel.

But you want this new rink because you go and attend games - people who attend games WILL BE helping to pay for this rink in the manner of a ticket tax, and increased ticket prices.

What about people who have no interest in hockey, the Flames, or who can barely afford to go now and will be priced out, or who can't afford to go at all right now. Should they help subsidize something that they will not use at all? That will cost other people money to enter and use?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Cappy and company convinced me in the CalgaryNEXT thread, no tax money for any billionaire's playhouse. Just say no to city money in this mess. This is a Flames arena, they should pay for all of it.

[oldschoolcalgary]

while i am not necessarily opposed to the use of public monies, the scale of the CalgaryNext project was mammoth...

i am not sure if calgarians really wanted to be involved in a project of that scale...

one of the things I always find funny is when these projects are given over to the City to run, like that is somehow a 'gift'...

Lets be honest; if these publicly supported projects were going to make money hand over fist, they'd never be magnanimous enough to hand it over to the City to run...

I do not want to have the risk of a taxpayer backed project to turn into a white elephant even for the Flames... Unless those public monies = a minority stake in the team...

that way, you aren't left with an empty stadium like STL or Oakland, while the team you supported decides that they aren't getting enough tax breaks and decide to relocate before you've even paid off the capital costs for the new arena (cough* Glendale* cough)

EDIT: i think some fans would be okay with some public money, as it isn't a zero sum game, but any thing more that 33% (for an ice rink) for me is too much without getting something back (either minor stake or a veto on the team moving unless they pay back all the public money that went into the new stadium)

so the poll could be a bit more nuanced

[stone hands]

I'm glad the city isn't playing ball

To offer a counter proposal would be akin to guaranteeing contribution from the city in some form or another

I want 0 dollars spent on a new rink. I dare anyone who thinks otherwise to watch the John Oliver bit on the real impact of public funded professional sports complexes

[Bill Bumface]

Bingo, the city didn't ask the Flames to clean up a contaminated area.

The city didn't ask the Flames to build a field house.

They were thrown in there as way the Flames figured they could get people to justify some public funding. I don't blame them for trying.

That doesn't mean it's on the city to counter.

This whole situation is like me needing a car, so I go to the dealership and offer them a baked potato.

It's not on them to counter with something reasonable when the opening offer is terrible.

From the cities perspective the location is wrong, the format is wrong, the funding is wrong, and the public infrastructure requirements are unreasonable.

Why the hell would you "counter" that?

Should the city hire a bunch of architects and engineers and economists to come up with a design and some renderings for Victoria Park and a funding model and propose that to the Flames?

I don't believe they should. That isn't their job, that is the Flames. They wasted enough hours running the economics on a proposal they knew at first sniff wasn't going to fly.

They should simply tell the Flames "Nice try, let me know when you have something real".

It is now on the Flames to come up on something new for Victoria Park and bring it forward.

It's not on the city to do anything but sit back and wait for the new proposal to show up.

[curves2000]

One of the things I find fascinating in this entire argument is how some hockey going fans are not seeing reality when it will come to ticket prices for a new building.

I have heard from fans and family members who are all for an Edmonton style arena deal and say they don't care about ticket prices or concession prices.

The question I always ask is why then aren't you paying 50% more for your season tickets so that you can be closer to the action? Why are you declining my invite to the Chrysler Club buffet dinner before the game?

A lot of people think that if ticket prices go up a lot that they will just move to similar priced sections in a new building, what they forgot to realize is that almost everyone is thinking along the same ways.

What bugs me most about this is how long this entire PROCESS has taken back to 2008 when we first heard about a new building. For so many years we heard "coming soon, plans to be announced, working out the details" etc.

Fast forward to 2017 and it almost seems like the process is just kind of starting in terms of the thickness of the negotiations without much in the way of public info being released in terms of dollars. The irony is how much Calgary smugness laughed at the entire Edmonton situation when in reality we aren't much better.

Interesting times regardless

[Bill Bumface]

Also, the poll question is ridiculous.

"Do you feel not funding a nuclear arms program is worth your children dying a slow, painful death as mutations set in and they puke blood every morning and cry begging you to end their lives?"

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Also, the poll question is ridiculous.

"Do you feel not funding a nuclear arms program is worth your children dying a slow, painful death as mutations set in and they puke blood every morning and cry begging you to end their lives?"

Gotta phrase it in a way to get as many yes' as possible since every previous funding poll has been a resounding no

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I honestly can't believe 20 people voted yes....I don't want public money being used either but hell I'd use all my own money if it meant the Flames don't leave Calgary. I'd honestly be devastated.

I voted yes in the poll, but only because there wasn't an option that represented how I actually feel.

Originally Posted by jammies

I can't believe the poll is framed as two choices: spend public money, keep the Flames; don't spend public money, lose the Flames. How about: spend as little public money as possible (preferably zero) while keeping the Flames? That's where my vote would go.

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Maybe we should amend the poll to ask how much Public money we're okay with spending on this project.

Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal all privately financed their arenas. Ottawa got $26M and Winnipeg $40M (three levels of government contributed).

I am not unreasonable. I see the value of a new facility. I don't see the value of paying $250M to help these billionaires. I'd be happy to donate land or contribute something up to $50M or so.

^^These.
Poll didn't give an option like the above, which I'd have voted for had it been there.

[ignite09]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Also, the poll question is ridiculous.

"Do you feel not funding a nuclear arms program is worth your children dying a slow, painful death as mutations set in and they puke blood every morning and cry begging you to end their lives?"

What's the accurate way too phrase it?

[KingMoo]

How many cities actually have purely Private stadiums? I think it's common knowledge to people living in major league sport team cities that they pay for a little of the stadium. The only people that can complain are the people that lived here before the Saddledome was built. They didn't sign on for that but were on the hook for to pay for it.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by New Era

Cappy and company convinced me in the CalgaryNEXT thread, no tax money for any billionaire's playhouse. Just say no to city money in this mess. This is a Flames arena, they should pay for all of it.

What are your thoughts on facilities like the Jubilee Auditorium?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by KingMoo

How many cities actually have purely Private stadiums? I think it's common knowledge to people living in major league sport team cities that they pay for a little of the stadium. The only people that can complain are the people that lived here before the Saddledome was built. They didn't sign on for that but were on the hook for to pay for it.

Off the top of my head...Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, New York, Los Angeles, Boston.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by ignite09

What's the accurate way too phrase it?

i think the poll could have suggested amounts or % of total construction budget...

ie how much would you think is a reasonable amount of public funds that ought to be spent to help the Flames with a new hockey arena?

$0
10M - 50M
51M - 100M
101M-200M

etc... % could easily be used as well... i think some of us see CalgaryNext as eye watering figures...some public contribution isn't unreasonable, just a question of how much imo