[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Locke]

Originally Posted by KingMoo

how much was spent on the ugly bridge that i will never use and don't want to see? How much on that giant eye sore of an 'O' ? I would prefer if not a single one of my dollars went towards those overpriced monstrosities...

Large cities all over north america help their local teams build stadiums. Why would it be any different here?

Its a matter of Scale.

There are budgets and programs for public art.

Hell...you want to talk about the Bridge and the ring? Fine.

Give the Flames the money then.

The Peace bridge was what? $25M? The Ring? $500k?

Sure. I'm 110% cool with the City handing the Calgary Flames a cheque for $25.5M.

Talking about compromise and negotiation? The Flames 'highballed' the City. This would be a perfectly acceptable counter-offer.

Its effectively close enough to $0 as makes no difference in the grand scheme of the endeavour.

[flambers]

Not a fan of how the Poll is worded...

Do I think the Flames will use the threat to move the club to push along the new Arena. ---- Yes

Will there be public money involved with the new Arena ---- Yes

[Canehdianman]

Originally Posted by KingMoo

how much was spent on the ugly bridge that i will never use and don't want to see? How much on that giant eye sore of an 'O' ? I would prefer if not a single one of my dollars went towards those overpriced monstrosities...

Large cities all over north america help their local teams build stadiums. Why would it be any different here?

Can you use the bridge whenever you want? Yes.

Can you use the new arena whenever you want? No.

That's the difference between public and private.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Exactly this.

Taxpayers in Calgary are under ZERO obligation to counter the Flames proposal. The city is not in the business of building arenas for pro sports teams especially when one already exists.

If I'm any other business and i say, "hey Calgary taxpayers, build my factory for me" and the City says "no" my next move isn't to hold tight and complain that they haven't made a counter-proposal.

The sheet fact that the flames made a stupid proposal doesn't then require additional action on behalf of Calgary taxpayers to start negotiating. You negotiate when you have a reason to and right now Calgary taxpayers don't have one.

So the city that has a creosote issue, a need for a field house, and has a mayor that's trying to bid for an olympic games should just ignore solutions that may help in all three?

That's silly.

If you don't want CalgaryNEXT then don't counter, but say why in tangible ways that make sense without sabre rattling and BS.

If you think say x% of it has merit, then you counter.

Doing neither is just stupid.

Look folks I'm not making any stand that public money needs to be spent to get the Flames a new arena. I just think Calgary deserves better civic management then we are getting on this.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

The Canucks were for sale a few years later because ownership overspent on the arena, and the new ownership has been very hands on and meddling.

The Leafs were carved up amongst the teacher's pension, corporations, and banks before the majority of it was purchased by the two largest media conglomerates in Canada.

The Canadiens have managed to have more or less the same contiguous ownership for over 40 years, though Molson did sell a big chunk of the team and arena to Gillett for 8 years before buying it back 8 years later at an almost 4x premium.

I think the Flames ownership has been a great group during its time in Calgary. The group certainly has the resources to privately fund an arena if it chooses to. I wonder what kind of uncertainty they might introduce into the ownership picture down the road, and what kind of ripple effect that might have on hockey operations. There's no way to say for certain, of course.

Sorry for the rambling stream of consciousness entry.

The Leafs, Habs and Canucks are all still in their markets. Remember too that these franchises are bought to be sold.

As I said, I'm not opposed to the city kicking in some land or cash to help the process along. But if the Flames want the public to cover half the costs, they should sell the city an ownership stake in the team. (I'm aware that is probably illegal/impossible, but you understand my point)

[MrMastodonFarm]

What reality is that poll based on?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Look folks I'm not making any stand that public money needs to be spent to get the Flames a new arena. I just think Calgary deserves better civic management then we are getting on this.

What can city management do at this point? The Flames were told West Village was a bad idea(iirc) went forward with a half-assed plane, refused to move from it when told it won't work, so here we are all two years later.

I suppose Calgary needs better management but I don't know what they can do at this point. I certainly hope Ken King and Flames ownership don't need their hands held through this process that much.

Come up with a viable plan and the city will work with you in it. Come up with something that isn't and they won't. That's fair.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So the city that has a creosote issue, a need for a field house, and has a mayor that's trying to bid for an olympic games should just ignore solutions that may help in all three?

That's silly.

If you don't want CalgaryNEXT then don't counter, but say why in tangible ways that make sense without sabre rattling and BS.

If you think say x% of it has merit, then you counter.

Doing neither is just stupid.

Look folks I'm not making any stand that public money needs to be spent to get the Flames a new arena. I just think Calgary deserves better civic management then we are getting on this.

You are talking about a negotiation that hasnt even begun.

I think I fundamentally agree with you, but the fact of the matter is that the Flames started the negotiation so far away from 'reasonable' that the counter-offer by nature had to be equally ridiculous and at that point it becomes a boondoggle.

They did not table a plan with any realistic possibility of a counter offer.

People want to condemn Nenshi for being condescending and uncommunicative? I have to say, I'd have been worse. I'd have actually waited to finish laughing before hanging up the phone.

Honestly, and I dont mean to be insulting, but CalgaryNEXT seems like it was based on the premise of throwing #### at the wall and seeing what sticks.

This isnt Kijiji.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

What can city management do at this point? The Flames were told West Village was a bad idea(iirc) went forward with a half-assed plane, refused to move from it when told it won't work, so here we are all two years later.

I suppose Calgary needs better management but I don't know what they can do at this point. I certainly hope Ken King and Flames ownership don't need their hands held through this process that much.

Come up with a viable plan and the city will work with you in it. Come up with something that isn't and they won't. That's fair.

Well I haven't liked King in this either so in that we agree.

Other than that I guess we disagree.

The city has an issue in the West Village, they have an expressed with for a Fieldhouse, and now a hint at an Olympic bid that will require new facilities.

I think a little more than "nope" would be expected in a proposal and negotiation.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So the city that has a creosote issue, a need for a field house, and has a mayor that's trying to bid for an olympic games should just ignore solutions that may help in all three?

The City can move forward with all of these items without any Flames involvement. They already had plans in development for West Village and the Fieldhouse before the Flames came calling. Ken King's plan was not a solution for anyone but the Flames.

If you don't want CalgaryNEXT then don't counter, but say why in tangible ways that make sense without sabre rattling and BS.

If you think say x% of it has merit, then you counter.

They did counter....with a pretty clear no thanks.

Look folks I'm not making any stand that public money needs to be spent to get the Flames a new arena. I just think Calgary deserves better civic management then we are getting on this.

Protecting us from an awful financial investment sounds like pretty great civic management to me.

[calgaryblood]

I honestly can't believe 20 people voted yes....I don't want public money being used either but hell I'd use all my own money if it meant the Flames don't leave Calgary. I'd honestly be devastated.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I honestly can't believe 20 people voted yes....I don't want public money being used either but hell I'd use all my own money if it meant the Flames don't leave Calgary. I'd honestly be devastated.

At the end of the day, I bet public money is used...

I also bet, the City does not have an issue with providing public money.

Comments at this time are election based statements...

City in my view are looking for the correct plan that will work.

[14]

I want my tax dollars to be used to fund the new facility. 100% behind it.

[Hack&Lube]

I'm not emotionally tied to them leaving but it makes sense for the city to partner up for building facilities for the Olympic bid, field-house, urban renewal in communities, infrastructure, etc. if the Flames org will pay for and manage and spur on those developments also.

The Flames are a very powerful tool and public money can and should be spent if there is a proper and public return to the rest of Calgarians who might not neccessarily be hockey fans.

How did it work the first time around when the Olympic Saddledome was built? An example is the $13M pedestrian bridge at Chinook Mall. Public money is being used to pay for a bridge to take people into a commercial mall that makes money for its owners. That said, Cadillac Fairview is paying for half of it - the portion on their parking lot. It brings benefit to both. That's what partnership is about.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by flambers

At the end of the day, I bet public money is used...

I also bet, the City does not have an issue with providing public money.

Comments at this time are election based statements...

City in my view are looking for the correct plan that will work.

Originally Posted by 14

I want my tax dollars to be used to fund the new facility. 100% behind it.

I completely agree!

There will be Public money in it.

I dont have a problem with that.

Its a matter of how much and what the terms are.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I honestly can't believe 20 people voted yes....

I can't believe the poll is framed as two choices: spend public money, keep the Flames; don't spend public money, lose the Flames. How about: spend as little public money as possible (preferably zero) while keeping the Flames? That's where my vote would go.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well if no one ever has a vision or a plan then nothing happens, I feel like I'm watching Finding Nemo.

So the city just said no, or at least Nenshi did. No counter at all. No real explanation other than doesn't work.

You might disagree with it but the city did give a reason. That reason was that they did not want to put public funds towards a new arena unless their is public benefit. So the city doesn't see enough public benefit in the west village proposal.


“........the thing about a new arena project is that our first criterion has always been public money for public benefits,” Nenshi said. “So, it really is up to the Calgary Sports and Entertainment [Corporation] to figure out what the public benefit is.”

Seems reasonable to me.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by KingMoo

how much was spent on the ugly bridge that i will never use and don't want to see? How much on that giant eye sore of an 'O' ? I would prefer if not a single one of my dollars went towards those overpriced monstrosities...

Large cities all over north america help their local teams build stadiums. Why would it be any different here?

You know who spends money on things like:

- Art to beautify their civic landscape?
- Bridges to connect their people?
- Libraries to educate everyone?

Civilized society.

You know who gives that money to billionaires instead?

Edmonton.

[Barnet Flame]

As I'm not a city of Calgary taxpayer, I have no vote on this. However, if I did have a vote I'd be in favour of public money being used dependent upon the deal offering value for the taxpayer.

For me, that would be more than just a venue for hockey, it would also need to be a venue that made Calgary a destination for entertainment acts. As a kid it annoyed me that groups I'd like to have seen bypassed Calgary in favour of Edmonton,

I think the Saddledome is iconic, but it was incredibly shortsighted to not have built it with a spec that included the ability to house major touring acts.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Utter foolishness.

Life's too short to care man. If they want to use some of my tax dollars to build something that I want I really do not care at all. It's amazing that so many people want a new rink but aren't willing to help pay for it. I want the rink, and I'm willing to help pay. I also don't care if it's CalgaryNEXT or the plan B option in Victoria Park. Maybe that's a short-sighted and foolish line of thought, but that's just how I feel.