[News] Calgary Flames sat down with the league to talk about penalties drawn on the team

[Dion]

Going public with this is going to have the opposite effect. Refs won't be happy hearing about this and I suspect that they won't give the Flame any leeway when it comes to penalties in the future.

Just wish the panel had said nothing.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Difference in Power Play Opportunities vs Minor Penalties Taken.


Pre-Wideman Incident (2014-15 - 82 games):

PP Opps = 255
MP Taken = 216
= Difference of +39

Pre-Wideman Incident (2015-16 - 47 Games)

PP Opps = 151
MP Taken = 123
= Difference of +28


After Wideman Incident (2015-16 - Without Tkachuk or Brouwer in line up - 35 Games)

PP Opps = 119
MP Taken = 135
= Difference of -16


After Wideman Incident (2016-17 - With New Additions - 58.5 Games)

PP Opps = 192
MP Taken = 248
= Difference of -56


This current Flames team is on pace for '-78' for a penalty differential which based on all the figures that I have compiled, it seems extremely uncharacteristic of a historically positive penalty differential team. So even though the Flames have drawn more penalties, it doesn't matter as they're still receiving considerably more minors then the historical statistics would indicate. There may or may not be a conspiracy at hand, but regardless, the facts may point to something suspicious in nature.

To play devil's advocate, the Flames could have been trending poorly prior to the Wideman incident. A differential stat based on bulk data doesn't show the highs and lows. It's possible only away games display a large negative differential and its overwhelming against the home games.

[Wormius]

I would disagree. If the refs know the public eye is on them they might be less conspicuous about their calls / non-calls.

I hate Alex Burrows, but I remember all of the crap calls he was getting cause of his diving until he brought it up in public. Kind of just stopped after that.

[djsFlames]

Yeah, having this leaked to the public can't possibly help if it reaches the ears of the officials.

Hope I'm wrong.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Yeah, having this leaked to the public can't possibly help if it reaches the ears of the officials.

Hope I'm wrong.

can't imagine the Flames leaked it

[Strange Brew]

This analysis also doesn't hold constant other things that are having an impact, like a new coaching staff and playing style.

If the Flames are approaching games with the attitude they are getting screwed by the refs, that could be a reason in and of itself.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

can't imagine the Flames leaked it

Oh no. Definitely not. Brad and management (except maybe that Conroy.. jk) aren't the types to let such dealings with the league get out there.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Dion

Going public with this is going to have the opposite effect. Refs won't be happy hearing about this and I suspect that they won't give the Flame any leeway when it comes to penalties in the future.

Just wish the panel had said nothing.

I disagree. It bugs me how secretive the NHL is towards its refs, but when a player gets suspended, they broadcast a lengthy justification on the NHL website. Fans know how much money the player was fined, how long the suspension, and the player and league both release a statement. When a coach gets fined, its posted all over the internet. But refs, who can single-handed force a game one way or the other, doesn't get scrutinized at all?

It makes me question why the NHL prefers it that way. If I owned a 500 million dollar franchise, I would really hate that some guy making 60K a year is costing me millions in potential playoff revenue. Or similarly, if there was revenue sharing and a team like Toronto is in last place, that's bad for everyone. If the league didn't want the outcomes to be determined by pure chaos outside of their control, the refs would be the only area they could influence, outside of blatantly blocking trades and such.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This analysis also doesn't hold constant other things that are having an impact, like a new coaching staff and playing style.

If the Flames are approaching games with the attitude they are getting screwed by the refs, that could be a reason in and of itself.

But the incident was mid-season when Hartley was coaching. The analysis showed the discrepancy in penalties being called happens right after, and continues into the next season when the coaching changes happened.

[puffnstuff]

Unless I remember it wrong what Elliotte said was the official that called him told him about the Flames meeting the league. So the Flames didnt leak it, the ref did (who would have known from the NHL I assume) and he told EF about it to try and clear the officials in regards to the Wideman effect.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Wormius

But the incident was mid-season when Hartley was coaching. The analysis showed the discrepancy in penalties being called happens right after, and continues into the next season when the coaching changes happened.

I don't think the sample size from last year was meaningful. You could just as easily argue they were regressing towards the average before the Wideman incident.

But I also admit that I believe this is all BS. Fans have been whining about refs, league conspiracies since the beginning of organized sports.

I would argue that things like Gaudreau constantly showing up the refs is a bigger factor and is more easily controlled. Yeah it sucks he broke his finger. Backlund broke his finger in practice.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

Unless I remember it wrong what Elliotte said was the official that called him told him about the Flames meeting the league. So the Flames didnt leak it, the ref did (who would have known from the NHL I assume) and he told EF about it to try and clear the officials in regards to the Wideman effect.

Then proceed to make two pretty brutal/questionable calls the following game that would only spur on more raised eyebrows.

Yes, there were consecutive calls the other way after the fact, but those extra infractions on the Flames (again) should not have occurred in the first place, IMO. Thank goodness the Flames are doing superbly in killing penalties. Fans would be fuming if those directly led to GWGs.

Seems they're intent on proving they can do whatever they want out there and no one can say or do a thing about it.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

Unless I remember it wrong what Elliotte said was the official that called him told him about the Flames meeting the league. So the Flames didnt leak it, the ref did (who would have known from the NHL I assume) and he told EF about it to try and clear the officials in regards to the Wideman effect.

I thought he said the official was pissed because of Doug McLean's comments about the Wideman Effect being why Chiasson got 5 and a game against Philly.

[RedWinger89]

This has Brian Burke written all over it.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Sure, the Flames may draw a lot of penalties as well, however the Flames overall since the Wideman incident are at an extreme negative in net pp opportunities/penalties taken. Tkachuk takes a lot of players to the box with him so that has increased the Flames' pp opportunities, but does not alter the discrepancy between pp opportunities vs penalties taken.

The Flames are like 24th? In the league. Other teams have it worse.

What's their penalty +/- over the last 5 seasons? I bet it's all over the place.

These things don't stay constant. Like when the Flames were shooting the lights out in 14/15 many Flames fans I talked to assured me that the Flames were just a high shooting percentage team. It balanced out.

I found this on HFBOARDS.

1. San Jose: +35
2. Philadelphia: +26
3. Carolina: +19
4. Chicago: +18
5. Detroit: +16
6. NY Rangers: +16
7. Vancouver: +16
8. Dallas: +15
9. Florida: +14
10. Tampa Bay: +12
11. Edmonton: +8
12. Minnesota: +6
13. Nashville: +6
14. Buffalo: +4
15. Columbus: +4
16. New Jersey: +2
17. NY Islanders: +1
18. Pittsburgh: +1
19. Ottawa: -1
20. Boston: -6
21. Toronto: -13
22. Winnipeg: -13
23. Los Angeles: -14
24. Calgary: -17
25. Arizona: -20
26. Anaheim: -22
27. Washington: -24
28. St. Louis: -25
29. Montreal: -30
30. Colorado: -34

Seems like Montreal has a better claim at being screwed over. They really don't have too many aggressive players on their team.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Dion

Going public with this is going to have the opposite effect. Refs won't be happy hearing about this and I suspect that they won't give the Flame any leeway when it comes to penalties in the future.

Just wish the panel had said nothing.

They don't give the Flames any leeway now. So it doesn't change #### all.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

The Flames are like 24th? In the league. Other teams have it worse.

What's their penalty +/- over the last 5 seasons? I bet it's all over the place.

These things don't stay constant. Like when the Flames were shooting the lights out in 14/15 many Flames fans I talked to assured me that the Flames were just a high shooting percentage team. It balanced out.

I found this on HFBOARDS.

1. San Jose: +35
2. Philadelphia: +26
3. Carolina: +19
4. Chicago: +18
5. Detroit: +16
6. NY Rangers: +16
7. Vancouver: +16
8. Dallas: +15
9. Florida: +14
10. Tampa Bay: +12
11. Edmonton: +8
12. Minnesota: +6
13. Nashville: +6
14. Buffalo: +4
15. Columbus: +4
16. New Jersey: +2
17. NY Islanders: +1
18. Pittsburgh: +1
19. Ottawa: -1
20. Boston: -6
21. Toronto: -13
22. Winnipeg: -13
23. Los Angeles: -14
24. Calgary: -17
25. Arizona: -20
26. Anaheim: -22
27. Washington: -24
28. St. Louis: -25
29. Montreal: -30
30. Colorado: -34

Seems like Montreal has a better claim at being screwed over. They really don't have too many aggressive players on their team.

I chose to show the last 3 seasons because the roster was roughly similar from year to year.

The numbers do not lie:
- The Flames going from 1st to 30th in minor penalties taken
- The Flames going from a generally positive penalty differential team to a significantly negative penalty differential team directly after the Wideman incident doesn't scream coincidence to me
- I've watched every game this season, the numbers seem to corroborate with the eye test from what I've seen

[jlh2640]

Aint going to help anything. The league as a whole is brutal right now. Refs are not making calls they should be.

[OldDutch]

Ugh can we just eject Wideman into the sun allready? I get he is untradable and will be fighting to stay in the leauge next year, but I really hope the Flames did everything to get rid of him. Between the penalty issue and the awful defensive play the guy should be as far away from here as possible.

Where there is smoke there is fire. I do think the refs have a legit axe to grind, just too bad the Flames didn't do everything to avoid this foreseeable outcome.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Oil Stain, read post #12

From +0.5 per game to -0.9 per game

Instantly

How come you ignored this post when you decided to come along trolololing, Oil Stain?