Man who beheaded fellow bus passenger wants to live on his own

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Unless you know (a) something his doctors don't about his condition/situation, (b) have some sort of specialized training that his doctors don't (c) can see the future or (d) just plainly don't believe in the system, I don't see how anybody could rationally believe otherwise.

Based on my life experiences of interacting with the mental health system, I do have good reason to be skeptical about what the experts claim to know about mental illness.

2. There is no such thing as a guarantee. I can't guarantee I won't kill you one day. You can't guarantee that you won't ever kill your neighbour. There is no such thing.

This is a very bad argument. Whether it was his fault or not, the fact is that he butchered someone to death and there is a chance that it could happen again. Even if that chance is small, he should be kept away from society on the basis that it has happened before. As far as I am aware, it has not been scientifically shown that an unsupervised schizophrenic on medication is no more likely to kill someone than a general member of the public. Furthermore, I don't think it is fair to downplay the possibility of him not staying on his medicine schedule.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Mathgod, are you aware of anyone who killed due to a schizophrenic psychotic episode who went on to have another schizophrenic psychotic episode resulting in another death in Canada after no longer being deemed a significant threat?

I keep asking this to people who are acting like it's statistically likely that he will kill again, but as far as I can tell the next time this happens will be the first such instance in Canada. If anything, your arguments are alleviating any fear I did have because they simply aren't backed by any real world information.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Based on my life experiences of interacting with the mental health system, I do have good reason to be skeptical about what the experts claim to know about mental illness.

This is a very bad argument. Whether it was his fault or not, the fact is that he butchered someone to death and there is a chance that it could happen again. Even if that chance is small, he should be kept away from society on the basis that it has happened before. As far as I am aware, it has not been scientifically shown that an unsupervised schizophrenic on medication is no more likely to kill someone than a general member of the public. Furthermore, I don't think it is fair to downplay the possibility of him not staying on his medicine schedule.

No, THIS is a very bad argument. Your way of thinking basically says that anybody that has committed any sort of crime in the past has a chance of committing it again, and therefore should be incarcerated indefinitely. Nevermind the fact that he wasn't even convicted of a crime in the first place!

And the REAL fact of the matter is that he has rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that, and the legal system has obligations under the Criminal Code that say that once he is no longer a threat, he must be released.

Also, your personal experiences with the mental health system are irrelevant.

[GoJetsGo]

I'm of the opinion the crime was so heinous he should be under some kind of detention / monitoring for life.

The idea that he's going to be left to his own accord to take the medications necessary to ensure he doesn't do something of that nature again is scary.

It's really pretty simple: I wonder if all the social justice warriors who are out defending this guy in full force would be okay with him moving in next door to they and their families this week. 90 % being sane, rational and honest would answer no., The last 10% are just stubborn and would lie about it.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

You said he was unconditionally not a threat, not that there were no conditions to his release. Those aren't the same thing.

I looked over my last few posts and I don't recall saying that. The closest was my reply to Fonz's statement. Which I interpreted to mean do I have any reservations about him being safe to be released into the public, to which I answered yes.

Do I believe he is able to go off his medication, no.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I wonder if all the social justice warriors who are out defending this guy in full force would be okay with him moving in next door to they and their families this week. 90 % being sane, rational and honest would answer no., The last 10% are just stubborn and would lie about it.

Enough with this "social justice warrior" bull####. Just because I believe something different than you, because I believe in the legal system and the health care system, don't apply some stupid buzzword label to it and write it off like "lulz, stoopit liberals.. "

And to answer your question, it's 100% irrelevant whether people are afraid of him moving in next door or not. His rights are not limited by anybody's fears.

[Ryan Coke]

Legit point, but I would argue that we are dealing with small sample sizes of people who commit violent murders, then are found NCR, then are given full release.

If the argument behind NCR is that it was the mental illness that was the sole cause, and we accept that the illness can never truly be 'cured' then it stands to reason that then risk is still there. You can't say it was the illnesses fault on one hand, then say that even though the illness is still there the danger isn't on the other.

And while I have tremendous respect for the mental health professionals that made this call, let's not pretend that this is a finalized and fully understood science. It is closer to something like weather forecasting; although a lot of the science is understood, there is as much that isn't, owning to the complexities of the human mind and the variables involved. Hence the prognosis' are best guesses moving forward.

This isn't like giving a several mathematicians a math problem and getting the same answer based on the same calculations. Predicting human behaviour, including someone with a significant mental illness, is very inexact.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

The idea that he's going to be left to his own accord to take the medications necessary to ensure he doesn't do something of that nature again is scary.

Why is it scary? Do you have a reason to be scared outside of fear-mongering emotions?

GoJetsGo, are you aware of anyone who killed due to a schizophrenic psychotic episode who went on to have another schizophrenic psychotic episode resulting in another death in Canada after no longer being deemed a significant threat? If you aren't, where does this fear manifests itself from?

And playing the neighbour thing is pretty stupid. I got two great neighbours on both side, My neighbours neighbour though is involved with drugs and gangs (been arrested twice that we know of). I'd gladly take Li at this point over him.

In any case, it's the exact argument I heard about the Syrian refugees from my racist buddy. "Sure, you'll SJW it up and say you want them to come to Canada but there's no way you want them near your kids, just look at what happened in West Edmonton Mall!"

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Enough with this "social justice warrior" bull####. Just because I believe something different than you, because I believe in the legal system and the health care system, don't apply some stupid buzzword label to it and write it off like "lulz, stoopit liberals.. "

And to answer your question, it's 100% irrelevant whether people are afraid of him moving in next door or not. His rights are not limited by anybody's fears.

That's not answering my question at all.

It's a simple one: Would you be ok with him moving in next door to you and or your family this week? Yes, or no?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Why is it scary? Do you have a reason to be scared outside of fear-mongering emotions?

GoJetsGo, are you aware of anyone who killed due to a schizophrenic psychotic episode who went on to have another schizophrenic psychotic episode resulting in another death in Canada after no longer being deemed a significant threat? If you aren't, where does this fear manifests itself from?

And playing the neighbour thing is pretty stupid. I got two great neighbours on both side, My neighbours neighbour though is involved with drugs and gangs (been arrested twice that we know of). I'd gladly take Li at this point over him.

In any case, it's the exact argument I heard about the Syrian refugees from my racist buddy. "Sure, you'll SJW it up and say you want them to come to Canada but there's no way you want them near your kids, just look at what happened in West Edmonton Mall!"

When not medicated, this man cut someone's head off. That is NOTHING like a refugee. That's absurd.

He's now being left to his own accord to ensure he continues to medicate. If he fails to do so, it's a well known fact what he's capable of.

The few of you who get off on being righteous with your keyboards would not feel the same way were he moving in next door to your family.

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Why is it scary? Do you have a reason to be scared outside of fear-mongering emotions?
....
And playing the neighbour thing is pretty stupid. I got two great neighbours on both side, My neighbours neighbour though is involved with drugs and gangs (been arrested twice that we know of). I'd gladly take Li at this point over him.

In any case, it's the exact argument I heard about the Syrian refugees from my racist buddy. "Sure, you'll SJW it up and say you want them to come to Canada but there's no way you want them near your kids, just look at what happened in West Edmonton Mall!"

For a pretty intelligent poster this post is surprising. There is a big difference between being scared of an immigrant from Syria -- just because of the country they are from -- and someone who has already lopped off and eaten part of someones head.

I would not want either the drug dealer or the mentally-ill-but-under-control guy who has eaten human flesh living near me. In both cases I would probably enhance security for my home, and have other defences available if needed, in addition to being more diligent about when and where my daughter plays outside.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

That's not answering my question at all.

It's a simple one: Would you be ok with him moving in next door to you and or your family this week? Yes, or no?

Nope! But I support his release either way, and if he were to live next to me, I'd be wary, but I wouldn't lynch him or move away or anything like that. I realize my fears are irrational, and not based on anything we know of science or medicine.

[Red Potato Standing By]

He could move next door to me. And I wouldn't really care. Would be no different then living next door to someone who killed someone for example by driving drunk.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Delgar

In both cases I would probably enhance security for my home, and have other defences available if needed, in addition to being more diligent about when and where my daughter plays outside.

Fair enough. If that's what you want to do, go at it. But your right to protect your home doesn't extend to infringe Vince Li's rights.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Nope! But I support his release either way, and if he were to live next to me, I'd be wary, but I wouldn't lynch him or move away or anything like that. I realize my fears are irrational, and not based on anything.

You answered no, you would not want to live next to him because you realize he's potentially a few bad days away from doing something like that again with no one checking up / in on him.

I am not advocating lynching him or any kind of vigilantism, but if he moved next door to me I'd be moving pretty quick and I think you're full of it when you say you wouldn't.

[DionTheDman]

Even if I were to move away, who cares? I already pointed out I realize my fears are irrational. The point is that the public's fears of him are irrational. He has been analyzed to death by some of the best minds in the country who are experts at what they do. If they deem him safe to be released, he's safe to be released. If they deem him a minuscule risk to offend, then he's a minuscule risk to offend. And Rational Me is ok with that, and accepts that.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Even if I were to move away, who cares? I already pointed out I realize my fears are irrational. The point is that the public's fears of him are irrational. He has been analyzed to death by some of the best minds in the country who are experts at what they do. If they deem him safe to be released, he's safe to be released. If they deem him a minuscule risk to offend, then he's a minuscule risk to offend. And Rational Me is ok with that, and accepts that.

How is it irrational - if you were in his immediate vicinity - to be concerned he might stop taking his medications and potentially lash out again?

I think that couldn't be a more rational fear.

We're not talking about a guy who might get in his car and drive drunk, we're talking about a guy who is capable of hearing voices instructing him to cut someone's head off and eat them and then do it.

I think the very sane and rational notion anyone of us in our right minds wouldn't want this guy (unsupervised) near us or our families underlines the fact that releasing him to ensure he self-medicates is a grossly irresponsible decision.

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

If they deem him safe to be released, he's safe to be released. If they deem him a minuscule risk to offend, then he's a minuscule risk to offend. And Rational Me is ok with that, and accepts that.

"They" make a lot of short sighted, dangerous and laughable decisions every year in every facet of society. That instills zero confidence.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Delgar

For a pretty intelligent poster this post is surprising. There is a big difference between being scared of an immigrant from Syria -- just because of the country they are from -- and someone who has already lopped off and eaten part of someones head.

I would not want either the drug dealer or the mentally-ill-but-under-control guy who has eaten human flesh living near me. In both cases I would probably enhance security for my home, and have other defences available if needed, in addition to being more diligent about when and where my daughter plays outside.

Delgar, are you aware of anyone who killed due to a schizophrenic psychotic episode who went on to have another schizophrenic psychotic episode resulting in another death in Canada after no longer being deemed a significant threat? If you aren't, where does this fear manifests itself from?

We're acting like it's a foregone conclusion that he's going to go off his med and kill again. Except no one has been able to point out this happening in Canada before. I mean, to me that's pretty irrational.

[GoJetsGo]

You should check out this documentary:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1152758/

and take a long hard look at the Canadian legal system and it's ability to determine what is and isn't an acceptable risk / threat.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

You should check out this documentary:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1152758/

and take a long hard look at the Canadian legal system and it's ability to determine what is and isn't an acceptable risk / threat.

Lol.

You should watch this documentary on a person suffering from schizophrenia who was released and killed again in Canada:

Oh ####, nevermind one doesn't exist.

Those weren't remotely the same situation. At this point it's simple fear-mongering. Shirley Turner posts bail. Vince Li spends 8 years in treatment. Same exact ####ing thing for sure.