Man who beheaded fellow bus passenger wants to live on his own

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

I would hope that someone would want to study and dissect the mind of someone like Li. He should be a willing participant to help ensure this doesn't happen to others. If we truly don't understand the intricacies of schizophrenia how will we ever cure it? I accept not criminally responsible but how about mentally responsible? Not rot in jail but live for science.

10 seconds ago you were preaching punishment. Now you want to "dissect" him? "Live for science?!" Uggh.

Also what do you believe is mentally responsible?...that's kind of the point, he didn't have the mental capacity at the time to be responsible...

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

Yes he should be jailed, we can argue that he didn't plan to kill anyone or even want to but his illness caused him to he still needs to be punished and not a few years of treatment and released you take a life you give a life. I don't mean give a life as in the death penalty though or even hard time as it is still an illness but he should be in a facility of some kind. Like I said its sad that his illness did this to him but it did and Tim McLean isn't coming back.

What you're looking for is revenge. That's not what our justice system is about. No amount of time in prison is going to bring back Tim Mclean.

[greyshep]

I think the gravity of his actions need to count for something. Its not like he just hauled off and punched a guy for no good reason or tackled someone and tried to choke them. He cut off someones head and tried eating it! Do you guys seriously look at these actions in the same manner just because he was having a psychotic episode?

Someone who is capable of or has the tendency to act this violently should be treated differently, simple as that IMO.

I have a hard time believing that the apparent numerous examples of offences committed by people in this state are at this level of violence.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

I would hope that someone would want to study and dissect the mind of someone like Li. He should be a willing participant to help ensure this doesn't happen to others. If we truly don't understand the intricacies of schizophrenia how will we ever cure it? I accept not criminally responsible but how about mentally responsible? Not rot in jail but live for science.

It's already happening.

Evaluation study. The purpose of this study is to understand the biologic basis of schizophrenia and to determine which symptoms are related to the illness itself and which are related to medications used to treat the illness. Ages 18 and over. Location in Bethesda, MD.

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/tria...ophrenia.shtml

[DionTheDman]

If making him a lab rat isn't the worst violation of his Constitutional rights, I don't know what is...

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by greyshep

I think the gravity of his actions need to count for something.

Uh yeah and it has...for the last nine years he's been under different stages of lockdown.

Originally Posted by greyshep

He cut off someones head and tried eating it! Do you guys seriously look at these actions in the same manner just because he was having a psychotic episode?

What manner do you think we are looking at it from? Do you think any of us were advocating for his release the day it happened? We are advocating for the release of an innocent person if he is deemed not to be a threat to society. Read that last sentence, and understand why that's so important. How can you disagree with that and maintain a free society?

Originally Posted by greyshep

Someone who is capable of or has the tendency to act this violently should be treated differently, simple as that IMO.

And he has been. Again, for nine years he has not be a free person.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by greyshep

Someone who is capable of or has the tendency to act this violently should be treated differently, simple as that IMO.

Everyone is capable of it. You, me, even every single Lady Byng trophy winner ever. It's just a matter of circumstance. In Vince Li's case, his circumstance was forced upon him and manifested itself before he ever had a chance to control it. And he doesn't have a tendency to do it. One unmedicated/untreated/undiagnosed patient isn't comparable to someone who has been under expert care for years and years and is now aware of his condition and the risks of same.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Locke

But...someone...has been murdered right? They've ceased to live against their will?

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Everyone is capable of it. You, me, even every single Lady Byng trophy winner ever. It's just a matter of circumstance. In Vince Li's case, his circumstance was forced upon him and manifested itself before he ever had a chance to control it. And he doesn't have a tendency to do it. One unmedicated/untreated/undiagnosed patient isn't comparable to someone who has been under expert care for years and years and is now aware of his condition and the risks of same.

I am happy you are so confident in your answer, but I am not buying it. Show me the other public beheadings done by a schizophrenic since there is so much confidence that this is "normal" and why we should treat this guy the same as any of the previous ones and release him out in the public freely to manage his own sickness.

[spuzzum]

Should have had him taken out back and shot immediately. I could care a less the circumstances. The guy cut the head off a passenger on a bus. Any other argument is pointless.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by greyshep

I am happy you are so confident in your answer, but I am not buying it. Show me the other public beheadings done by a schizophrenic since there is so much confidence that this is "normal" and why we should treat this guy the same as any of the previous ones and release him out in the public freely to manage his own sickness.

We don't need to prove the negative. That's not the basis of our Justice system.

If you want to get so specific, show me the recidivism rates on NCR beheadings for people cleared by the experts, deemed not a threat and released by the Criminal Board.

I'm beginning to appreciate people like spuzzum who are just looking for some form of justice (even if I would call it completely misguided and even barbaric) because they are not mincing words. But I think the feign idea of keeping him locked up (or monitored) forever under the guise of him being a threat against the opinions of experts with no evidence is bogus from a lot of people.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by greyshep

I am happy you are so confident in your answer, but I am not buying it. Show me the other public beheadings done by a schizophrenic since there is so much confidence that this is "normal" and why we should treat this guy the same as any of the previous ones and release him out in the public freely to manage his own sickness.

The one I remember is Sandy Charles. He was 14 and killed a 7 year old and boiled is fat so that he could fly.

http://globalnews.ca/news/922187/san...toon-facility/

It sounds like his treatment has not gone as well as Li's which should give us confidence in the system that each case is treated independently.

[OMG!WTF!]

Derek Puffer is another one...the guy who killed Billy Powers and his wife. Three years ago they found him wandering around Mcleod Trail, naked and covered in blood. Now he's getting some freedom but still needs full time supervision.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3131946/ma...-some-freedom/

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

We don't need to prove the negative. That's not the basis of our Justice system.

If you want to get so specific, show me the recidivism rates on NCR beheadings for people cleared by the experts, deemed not a threat and released by the Criminal Board.

I'm beginning to appreciate people like spuzzum who are just looking for some form of justice (even if I would call it completely misguided and even barbaric) because they are not mincing words. But I think the feign idea of keeping him locked up (or monitored) forever under the guise of him being a threat against the opinions of experts with no evidence is bogus from a lot of people.

Do you believe that he should have the right to choose whether or not to medicate himself. That is the authority you are granting him with an absolute discharge.

Also you are again stating facts that have not been tested in a court of law. Courts have only ruled that he is safe with monitoring and experts have only testified to that fact. At this point it is only his lawyer asking for the absolute discharge. Whether experts and the judicial system find that appropriate is still being tested.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by greyshep

I am happy you are so confident in your answer, but I am not buying it. Show me the other public beheadings done by a schizophrenic since there is so much confidence that this is "normal" and why we should treat this guy the same as any of the previous ones and release him out in the public freely to manage his own sickness.

Who said anything about it being normal? Clearly it's not, and he has undergone treatment to rehabilitate from his "abnormality". As for showing you proof... I've already posted the results of a study done on recidivism by NCR patients. Why do people keep asking for proof when it's right there? Conveniently, people just ignored it when it was posted. Nobody had a rebuttal to that.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Who said anything about it being normal? Clearly it's not, and he has undergone treatment to rehabilitate from his "abnormality". As for showing you proof... I've already posted the results of a study done on recidivism by NCR patients. Why do people keep asking for proof when it's right there? Conveniently, people just ignored it when it was posted. Nobody had a rebuttal to that.

You know your study points to a .6% violent recidivism rate over the next 3 years and an increase in recidivism rate from those who receive an absolute discharge compared with those with conditional discharges or no discharges.

This violent crime rate is higher than the average rate of the population.

[DionTheDman]

Perhaps you missed these parts:

people found not guilty by reason
of insanity (equivalent to the NCRMD verdict) were less
likely to reoffend than those who did not have this finding.
Moreover, people with mental illness who committed
a serious offence, such as homicide or sexual offences,
were less likely to reoffend than those who committed less
serious offences.

The 3-year follow-up recidivism rates for our multi-province
sample of people found NCRMD was 17% following index
verdict, 20% following conditional discharge and 22%
following absolute discharge. These rates are lower than rates
of recidivism found among a general offender population
(34%)26 and much lower than rates found among an inmate
population treated for mental disorder (70%)27 during the
same observation period. The NCRMD population seems to
be adequately managed through the RB system. As shown
in other studies,14 and inconsistent with the introduction of a
high-risk accused category in Canadian legislation, people
found NCRMD for severe offences (such as those causing
death, attempting to cause death, or sex offences) were
actually less likely to reoffend, compared with people who
had not committed severe offences against the person or
offences that were not against a person (for example, theft
and possession of narcotics).

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Who said anything about it being normal? Clearly it's not, and he has undergone treatment to rehabilitate from his "abnormality". As for showing you proof... I've already posted the results of a study done on recidivism by NCR patients. Why do people keep asking for proof when it's right there? Conveniently, people just ignored it when it was posted. Nobody had a rebuttal to that.

Does that study focus solely on extremely violent murderers that were found NCR?

[DionTheDman]

I mean it's pretty obvious and trite that someone that isn't monitored has a higher chance of committing any sort of offence than someone that is monitored. But it's a cost/benefit situation. If the experts who have treated him for years and years and who probably know him better than he knows himself are confident to say that he is no longer a risk to the public and can be released, don't you think they have taken into account the possibility of relapse? Or do you think that it's such a foreign and unfathomable possibility that only the TRUE experts on calgarypuck.com would ever think of such a possibility?

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by greyshep

Does that study focus solely on extremely violent murderers that were found NCR?

No, but why would it? What does that matter?