Black Lives Matter get police float kicked out of Pride Parade

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Hypothetically speaking, if a hard right government somehow got into power in this country and started cracking down on anti-sodomy laws and other laws designed to discriminate against the gay community, do people truly believe that the police wouldn't go right back to raiding gay bars and cracking skulls?

Honestly, yeah, I truly believe that. I think we've come far enough as a society that there would be huge resistance from within police forces to this. At best a minority of cops would be on board with it, and obviously they'd end up in confrontations with the public. Maybe you think that's naive.

Originally Posted by rubecube

Why did you quote me if you weren't going to bother answering my question? The point of the matter is that police officers as individuals are not being excluded from Pride, the police as a symbol of violence, hatred, and discrimination against the gay community are.

I mean, really? You say it's just a publicity stunt but the Toronto police have gay officers and participating in the largest public pro-gay event the city has is a pretty good way to show support for them. The message internally is clear; "we want you here too". Isn't that exactly what we'd want for organizations that likely still aren't the best atmosphere to be gay in? I'll skip the WBC thing; this is more like "You Can Play". Maybe there's a PR aspect of it but it's still hugely positive for hockey players and fans to make it clear where they stand, given what locker rooms can be like.

All in all this just seems to me like a good way to increase mutual resentment between police and the communities they work in. If you did a dangerous and largely thankless job serving members of your community, and they turned around and lectured you about how what you do is a symbol of hatred and violence and discrimination, you'd probably get pretty cynical pretty quickly.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

Cite?

We're talking BLM here. Since when do stats matter?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

What exactly has the policing community done to show remorse for their past actions and continued actions against the gay community and PoC, other than the half-hearted PR stunt of wanting to be involved with Pride? What have they done to assure that they're taking meaningful steps to prevent future harm against these same people?

So what would satisfy you? Do you really think an official proclamation written by a police communications flack and read out at a news conference by the chief of police is a more meaningful gesture than police - include gay police officers - actually participating in the parade officially and in uniform?

And I don't get this 'future harm' angle. Police in the future could potentially beat up anyone. Again, walk me through a plausible scenario where police go around randomly beating up gays and it's sanctioned by the authorities?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bootsy

Maybe black lives matter should be banned from the parade since historically the black community have been very violent and homophobic against gays.

And maybe white people should be banned from the parade since historically the white community has been very violent and homophobic against gays. I mean, since we're we're being absurd, we should think about it.

Anyway, just like "welder" and "accountant" are jobs, "police officer" is a job. It's not a race, minority, marginalized group, or distinct culture. They can not be discriminated against. Because it's a group of people who have a specific job and that's it.

If the Local Pipefitters 415 Union wanted a float in the parade and were turned down, would we see such outrage? If Ernst & Young wanted a float in the parade and were denied, would anyone care?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Anyway, just like "welder" and "accountant" are jobs, "police officer" is a job. It's not a race, minority, marginalized group, or distinct culture. They can not be discriminated against. Because it's a group of people who have a specific job and that's it.

If the Local Pipefitters 415 Union wanted a float in the parade and were turned down, would we see such outrage? If Ernst & Young wanted a float in the parade and were denied, would anyone care?

C'mon. You really don't see why police participation is different?

• It shows police are onside with the gay community now. So bigots can no longer tell themselves they have civic authority on their side.
  
• Police are represented in all kinds of parades and civic showcases. Their participation in pride shows that the gay community is a normal part of society.
  
• It shows gay police officers that they're accepted members of the force.
  
• Police participation offers increased security for a community that is still the target of violence. You would think this would be a consideration after the Miami massacre

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

If the Local Pipefitters 415 Union wanted a float in the parade and were turned down, would we see such outrage? If Ernst & Young wanted a float in the parade and were denied, would anyone care?

The thing for me is that the Police were ALREADY in the parade, and had been for a few years prior as well if memory serves. It wasn't until the BLM Toronto chapter, most likely desperate for attention since there's no conceivable reason for them to operate in Canada, hijacked last year's parade that there was ever an issue.

Also the police aren't the same as pipe fitters or accountants, I hontesly believe PD in Canada really try to engage in the community in a positive way since it's integral to their duties.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

[*]Police are represented in all kinds of parades and civic showcases. Their participation in pride shows that the gay community is a normal part of society.

There's also the flip slide of this - police participate in events like this in part to signal to the community that they're a part of it, that at the end of the day they're just people, rather than some menacing force standing apart from the community whose purpose is to oversee them and punish them when they get out of line. In other words, to combat the image that everyone was complaining about in the Police thread in re: the colour of their squad cars... this sort of engagement helps to build that trust.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

C'mon. You really don't see why police participation is different?

• It shows police are onside with the gay community now. So bigots can no longer tell themselves they have civic authority on their side.
  
• Police are represented in all kinds of parades and civic showcases. Their participation in pride shows that the gay community is a normal part of society.
  
• It shows gay police officers that they're accepted members of the force.
  
• Police participation offers increased security for a community that is still the target of violence. You would think this would be a consideration after the Miami massacre

Fair enough. I happen to think that they should be included for those reasons, but there's a theme of "they are being discriminated against!" going through this and it's just bull####.

Like "how dare they deny police participation! They wouldn't say no to Jews or First Nations groups!".

[Weitz]

Begs the question that if some terrible event happened during the parade would police be hesitant to respond since they may feel they are not wanted?

I think only things like that happen in movies and such but it is something to think about.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Begs the question that if some terrible event happened during the parade would police be hesitant to respond since they may feel they are not wanted?

I think only things like that happen in movies and such but it is something to think about.

Nope if something happened during the parade they wouldn't hesitate to respond. Whether they're wanted or not they'd go and do their job.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Hypothetically speaking, if a hard right government somehow got into power in this country and started cracking down on anti-sodomy laws and other laws designed to discriminate against the gay community, do people truly believe that the police wouldn't go right back to raiding gay bars and cracking skulls?

You live in BC, so I think you know how the local police tend to react to archaic demands from old, fat white men in Ottawa.

Both treating marijuana as a dangerous narcotic and closing down things like the injection sites were ignored. Both the local RCMP and LEOs realized that they had better things to do and that coming down on things like the injection site was backwards and not something that made sense in this day and age.

But you think that all these same officers are just sitting on their hands, and hoping and waiting to get the green light to go beat up some gays? Does this include any openly gay officers who happen to be police now?

Here is the thing that kills this argument. If you agree with BLM that the Canadian police forces around the country, of all types, are already oppressive and abusing power, beating citizens for no real reason, then what is stopping them from just doing all this now?

Also, as for your analogy that you're not letting this guy in who beat up your friends years ago. It's not accurate. That guy who came in and beat up your friends is gone. You're holding this new guy responsible for the sins of his father. And it seems no matter how much he is trying to make amends and show you that he is sorry, it's not good enough because you enjoy nursing this grudge on your teat and don't want it gone.

[PepsiFree]

Why does anyone care that police can't have an official presence in the pride parade?
It all seems a bit heavily coded to me, considering police officers are in no way restricted from marching in the parade.

It's great that pride is all-inclusive. It's got a history in protest though, and I feel like that should be remembered.

It's a job, not an identity. Please stop pretending "police officer" is anything more than that. If you think it is, it shouldn't be.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

You live in BC, so I think you know how the local police tend to react to archaic demands from old, fat white men in Ottawa.

Both treating marijuana as a dangerous narcotic and closing down things like the injection sites were ignored. Both the local RCMP and LEOs realized that they had better things to do and that coming down on things like the injection site was backwards and not something that made sense in this day and age.

But you think that all these same officers are just sitting on their hands, and hoping and waiting to get the green light to go beat up some gays? Does this include any openly gay officers who happen to be police now?

Here is the thing that kills this argument. If you agree with BLM that the Canadian police forces around the country, of all types, are already oppressive and abusing power, beating citizens for no real reason, then what is stopping them from just doing all this now?

Also, as for your analogy that you're not letting this guy in who beat up your friends years ago. It's not accurate. That guy who came in and beat up your friends is gone. You're holding this new guy responsible for the sins of his father. And it seems no matter how much he is trying to make amends and show you that he is sorry, it's not good enough because you enjoy nursing this grudge on your teat and don't want it gone.

White male post, didn't read.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

You live in BC, so I think you know how the local police tend to react to archaic demands from old, fat white men in Ottawa.

Both treating marijuana as a dangerous narcotic and closing down things like the injection sites were ignored. Both the local RCMP and LEOs realized that they had better things to do and that coming down on things like the injection site was backwards and not something that made sense in this day and age.

But you think that all these same officers are just sitting on their hands, and hoping and waiting to get the green light to go beat up some gays? Does this include any openly gay officers who happen to be police now?

Well ignoring for a second the well-earned terrible reputations the Vancouver and Victoria PD, I'll grant that it might not happen in most of the major cities in Canada, but you honestly think it's not going to happen anywhere? I mean maybe I'm wrong on this, so I'm not going to argue it too strongly, but it's not like LE's relaxed attitudes towards marijuana and safe-injection sites are showing up in Calgary and Edmonton.

Here is the thing that kills this argument. If you agree with BLM that the Canadian police forces around the country, of all types, are already oppressive and abusing power, beating citizens for no real reason, then what is stopping them from just doing all this now?

What point are you trying to make here, that people shouldn't protest things they find unjust because they're happening anyways?

Also, as for your analogy that you're not letting this guy in who beat up your friends years ago. It's not accurate. That guy who came in and beat up your friends is gone. You're holding this new guy responsible for the sins of his father. And it seems no matter how much he is trying to make amends and show you that he is sorry, it's not good enough because you enjoy nursing this grudge on your teat and don't want it gone.

Not really. First Nations, blacks, trans, and women (see RCMP sex assault/harassment record, VPD prostitution nonsense) are still victimized, profiled, etc., so even if you're a white, gay man or woman, there's a chance you know and care about someone who's been harmed in recent history by law enforcement, and that's not even getting into indigenous or LGBTQ2S of colour who continue to experience it firsthand. And that's kind of the point BLM is trying to make. How can you invite a symbol/organization that harms people you care about into your event if you truly do care about those people?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by nik-

White male post, didn't read.

Check your privilege, doesn't take much to find my cross-dressing pictures.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Why does anyone care that police can't have an official presence in the pride parade?
It all seems a bit heavily coded to me, considering police officers are in no way restricted from marching in the parade.

They are not prevented from marching in it as a civilian, and I think that some still will. But I think when a major public leader goes to an event like this representing his party or civic institution goes in as a whole and has it's members representing said institution as well as themselves; or when a private company allows its members to represent the company at an event like this it means more. It speaks to the fact that their pride in who they are isn't just accepted by these people and institutions but is respected and lauded by them. They are welcome as they are and that these people and institutions will stand with them against the hatred and fear still held by some. I sincerely hope that the TPD doesn't just say #### it, and still finds a way to show support during Pride week, not letting the misdirected politiking of a few ruin the message meant for many.

The reason I dislike this because it is attempting to move us backwards and dig up old animosity and stigma that we have done a very good job as a society of moving away from in the last 20 years. I agree that the way homosexuals used to be treated in society in general used to be awful, it wasn't just police though. I think that the police need to be reminded that they do have a cross to bear on this issue. I do not think that this is the right way to go about doing it though.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's great that pride is all-inclusive. It's got a history in protest though, and I feel like that should be remembered.

I agree. I think having the people that were being protested against marching in said parades and functions is a very good way of reminding and remembering. These were once enemies. They are now our allies because of what we fought for. I think kicking them out is a step back and an attempt to recreate the fight that was already won.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's a job, not an identity. Please stop pretending "police officer" is anything more than that. If you think it is, it shouldn't be.

I am not fighting for their individual rights, I agree they can march as an individual if they want and suspect some will. I think that as an institution their presence is a stronger message though.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Why does anyone care that police can't have an official presence in the pride parade?
It all seems a bit heavily coded to me, considering police officers are in no way restricted from marching in the parade.

It's great that pride is all-inclusive. It's got a history in protest though, and I feel like that should be remembered.

It's a job, not an identity. Please stop pretending "police officer" is anything more than that. If you think it is, it shouldn't be.

And that's the thing that raises a huge red flag for me. If being invited into the parade paramount to you respecting and accepting the LGBTQ2S community, then you're not really that much of an ally.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by rubecube

And that's the thing that raises a huge red flag for me. If being invited into the parade paramount to you respecting and accepting the LGBTQ2S community, then you're not really that much of an ally.

Do you think that since they're not being invited they're just going to stop respecting and accepting the community?

I don't think you honestly think that, so is it just drama for dramas sake?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

Do you think that since they're not being invited they're just going to stop respecting and accepting the community?

I don't think you honestly think that, so is it just drama for dramas sake?

I'm just following the posts in the thread, man. According to one poster, excluding the police from the parade is going to "create suspicion, anger, resentment."

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Well ignoring for a second the well-earned terrible reputations the Vancouver and Victoria PD, I'll grant that it might not happen in most of the major cities in Canada, but you honestly think it's not going to happen anywhere? I mean maybe I'm wrong on this, so I'm not going to argue it too strongly, but it's not like LE's relaxed attitudes towards marijuana and safe-injection sites are showing up in Calgary and Edmonton.

It will happen places. It will not be because the RCMP and police forces and institutions are doing it because that is the line they want towed. It will be done, because there are ####ty people as police officers who abuse their position. This will not be new. But I don't think it will be a majority. I suspect even in places like Edmonton or Calgary, it would be an ignored order by a dogmatic leader living in the past.

Originally Posted by rubecube

What point are you trying to make here, that people shouldn't protest things they find unjust because they're happening anyways?

Nope. The point I made is that Black Lives Matter and some of their allies are doing this because they feel that Canadian Police forces are corrupt and abusive towards minorities and that there is nothing being done to stop this rampant problem. If this is the case, then they do not need a law enforced by a politician to go back to treating the gay community like trash. They can already just go ahead and do it with only the champions of peace and freedom, like BLM, protesting to stop them.

Originally Posted by rubecube

Not really. First Nations, blacks, trans, and women (see RCMP sex assault/harassment record, VPD prostitution nonsense) are still victimized, profiled, etc., so even if you're a white, gay man or woman, there's a chance you know and care about someone who's been harmed in recent history by law enforcement, and that's not even getting into indigenous or LGBTQ2S of colour who continue to experience it firsthand. And that's kind of the point BLM is trying to make. How can you invite a symbol/organization that harms people you care about into your event if you truly do care about those people?

This is all awful. But because there are ####ty people who are police, you don't want the main institution saying that they stand against these ####ty people and their actions and poisonous ideas? I sincerely hope that all ####ty police officers get arrested and charged. I also think things like police in uniform and representing their institution marching in lock step at pride parades and Prime Ministers marching in lock step at pride parades are very important things for getting rid of that sort of negative thinking down the line.

Hopefully the more bigots are shown their backwards thinking is not wanted within the ranks of things like the police or military or politics, the less likely they are to join them until their cancerous thinking is killed off. Maybe a bit optimistic, but dare to dream.

I think that as a rule inclusion is always much more effective tool for reaching understanding and improvement.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

The reason I dislike this because it is attempting to move us backwards and dig up old animosity and stigma that we have done a very good job as a society of moving away from in the last 20 years.

I used to take it as a given that people want to move forward as a species, to regard and treat one another as individuals. I thought we were moving past that conservative mindset where people are Protestants or Catholics or White or Chinese or Jews.

I'm really having my doubts though. It seems our innate Us vs Them outlook is rooted deep indeed. Too many people - and not just conservatives - still crave group feels so much that they don't want to give it up. They need to have people to resent and to blame. And not individuals - groups of people. Liberals face a strong headwind moving forward again, now that liberal values are being assaulted from both left and right.

Originally Posted by rubecube

And that's the thing that raises a huge red flag for me. If being invited into the parade paramount to you respecting and accepting the LGBTQ2S community, then you're not really that much of an ally.

The gay community seemed to accept police just fine until BLM flipped out and guilted them into excluding an organization that was recently welcome.