Pat Tillman's Brother rips the neo-cons a new one

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I assumed Looger was banned due to his comments in this thread... His profile says 'in the sin bin', and he can no longer receive PM's.

Yes, ironic when you consider the garbage that White Doors and HOZ get away with. Looger is aggressive in defending his stance, and with good reason based on the number of dogpiles he is subject to, but at least he defends his case with supporting information. Guys like White Doors makes drive bys and NEVER contributes anything to a thread. They like to say I am insulting, but I back my **** up. They are insulting to the intelligence in the gfact that they refuse to back anything up. They make their petty posts then run away and hide. Which is worse? I'll take all the brow beating from someone that is burying me in a well thoughtout debate, but I won't take crap from guys that hit and run. Looger should not be in the sitting on the sidelines while the jokers are running wild.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Yes, ironic when you consider the garbage that White Doors and HOZ get away with. Looger is aggressive in defending his stance, and with good reason based on the number of dogpiles he is subject to

Pretty much my opinion... people were dragging his name through the mud in threads that he wasn't even in and had no relation to him with no penalty, but then some of these other guys get free rein to degrade the Board. I guess I'm not of the same opinion as the powers that be... meh.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Yes, ironic when you consider the garbage that White Doors and HOZ get away with. Looger is aggressive in defending his stance, and with good reason based on the number of dogpiles he is subject to, but at least he defends his case with supporting information. Guys like White Doors makes drive bys and NEVER contributes anything to a thread. They like to say I am insulting, but I back my **** up. They are insulting to the intelligence in the gfact that they refuse to back anything up. They make their petty posts then run away and hide. Which is worse? I'll take all the brow beating from someone that is burying me in a well thoughtout debate, but I won't take crap from guys that hit and run. Looger should not be in the sitting on the sidelines while the jokers are running wild.

Lanny ... you lead the league in personal attacks, you're somewhat of an institution so you get the benefit of the doubt, but you should be the last one to point out where lines should be drawn for conduct.

[Bingo]

That and I think it's human nature to see insults more obviously in comments from those that you disagree with compared to attacks from guys you consider of like mind.

[Red Mile Style]

At the risk of my 420th post in the pot thread going away, I have to defend looger, and plead with the powers that be to please reconsider this decision.

Looger is one of the top people that add substance to this forum. I always enjoy reading the threads he starts and the different angles he provides. He always adds to the debate a very unique viewpoint and incredibly always finds ways to liven debate.

I understand that there needs to be moderation, but Looger does not deserve this.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Lanny ... you lead the league in personal attacks, you're somewhat of an institution so you get the benefit of the doubt, but you should be the last one to point out where lines should be drawn for conduct.

It's your board Bingo, and you may do with it what you like, but I treat it as if it were mine too. I defend my territority and I'm not going to let a bunch of no minds destroy it (turning it into anohter HF where in patients run the asylum). I don't mind people calling me a horse's ass as it is right on the money at times. I think Looger makes the board better, while the clowns in question make it worse. There are certain people I would defend. You know I would defend you until the cows come home. I would do the same for any poster that brings a well thought out argument. Others I don't have the time of day for. I would hope you take the same attitude. Your board, your call.

[JiriHrdina]

Looger was not given a lengthy suspension, I'm sure he'll be back soon enough.

[IginlasEnforcer]

This is a tough thread and people will be very passionate about the subject...There is a fine line here as this is such a touchy subject.

I wish life was not so ******up.

[Bingo]

I agree with exactly 2% of what Looger has to say, but he has every right to differ or have his own opinion, no matter how extreme it seems to many.

However ... the comment in question was way over the edge.

Short term cool off seems fair.

[Flash Walken]

I just don't understand how a poster who contributes nothing to the forum in general, doesn't even participate in the main forum on this board, and who routinely insults posters and groups is allowed so much leway.

I also don't understand why people still reply to him, encouraging his behaviour.

It's not my board, and didnt contribute to the new server fund, but I think the wrong poster was sent to the sin bin, to the detriment of the forum as a whole.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Looger

couldn't agree more bingo.

i haven't been insulted by you for my views but i get insulted ALL THE TIME for it.

point of fact i only insult those that start it.

and i always discuss things.

you're just going to have to come down off your high horse and realize that until you call out HOZ, White Doors, Azure, Shawnski, Bleeding Red, Cowperson, Displaced Flames Fan, and Table 5, then you can accuse Lanny or myself (kind of unclear there) of insulting those with other views with some form of moral high ground.

EXCUSE ME?

When have I insulted you?

Find the post and show me. You've simply put my name on the list because I'm on "the other side".

[Frank the Tank]

As much as I disagree with Looger's views on 9/11, I do admire his passion. And I think I have read almost everything he has posted. I say almost, because he does post an insane amount of links.

AND, he was unfairly dogpiled in my "Human Camera" thread for his views on vaccination, many of which are the same views I hold. He was trying to get parents to look at the whole picture.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It's not my board, and didnt contribute to the new server fund, but I think the wrong poster was sent to the sin bin, to the detriment of the forum as a whole.

I think that there is a BIG difference between
a) someone who frequently makes little pokes here and there; and
b) someone who deliberately and consciously goes way over the line.

Little pokes are sometimes subtle, but you have to know the history of the poster to get a full view of his/her actions over time.

Going way over the line can never (IMO) be condoned.. and ignoring it is simply condoning it (unfortunately).

Neither are right and neither are good... but one is much worse than the other.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by calculoso

I think that there is a BIG difference between
a) someone who frequently makes little pokes here and there; and
b) someone who deliberately and consciously goes way over the line.

Little pokes are sometimes subtle, but you have to know the history of the poster to get a full view of his/her actions over time.

Going way over the line can never (IMO) be condoned.. and ignoring it is simply condoning it (unfortunately).

Neither are right and neither are good... but one is much worse than the other.

My argument is that the 'little pokes' do more to harm discussion on the forum than one time 'going way over the line' (which I also don't particularly agree with, but again, that's not my call).

I've seen many debates in this forum turned into flame fests and unrelated arguments because a small enclave of posters routinely refuse to contribute any substance to their arguments, and it really sucks any desire to read further or contribute.

I'd much rather rebuke someone for their choice of language than defend myself against other posters putting words in my mouth and applying false positions to my argument. That isn't discussion, that's disingenuous and badgering.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

My argument is that the 'little pokes' do more to harm discussion on the forum than one time 'going way over the line' (which I also don't particularly agree with, but again, that's not my call).

I agree with you to be honest.

But man it's hard.

You start policing little pokes and be for you know it you have 35% of posts in question and real damage done to the site itself.

I don't like the pokes, but you can't really regulate it all ... much easier and probably much better to hammer guys for going way over the edge because at least then you set the decency scale to something that has to be adhered to.

In a perfect world everyone would just listen to the "no personal attacks" insistence on the site and police themselves ... the way it used to be.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I agree with you to be honest.

But man it's hard.

You start policing little pokes and be for you know it you have 35% of posts in question and real damage done to the site itself.

I don't like the pokes, but you can't really regulate it all ... much easier and probably much better to hammer guys for going way over the edge because at least then you set the decency scale to something that has to be adhered to.

In a perfect world everyone would just listen to the "no personal attacks" insistence on the site and police themselves ... the way it used to be.

I've moderated contentious boards before, so I know how hard it is. Personally, I don't think 'personal attacks' are really all that bad. I don't think it takes away from the discussion until it devolves into PURELY ad hominem posts. I think if you present an opinion, you should be open to a little bit of ridicule if someone else thinks it warrants it, and that all posters should be grown up enough to handle a little bit of ridicule or insults.

Clearly, from a moderation stand point, you don't want to get involved until you have to, but I think in specifics with White Doors, who might be the worst offender of the 'pokes' that I've seen on any message board I've been party to, that moderation might have to become a bit slanted against him.

I'm not saying moderators automatically question all of his posts, but I'm sure you can sympathize with the idea of repeated offenders deserve closer scrutiny.This might also apply to looger, but from what I've seen, it shouldn't.

It's a tough call, but I know those posts (and the discussions they spawn) are cause for me to abandon a thread, and I'll venture that I'm not the only one.

Edit: another way I've seen of reducing the 'pokes' is to allow open season on those posters. I don't know if that's an acceptable solution on this board though.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Edit: another way I've seen of reducing the 'pokes' is to allow open season on those posters. I don't know if that's an acceptable solution on this board though.

Open season would lead to bigger issues.

Take Looger's comment in this thread. If it's open season on White Doors, then that would be okay.. then he says it to someone else and it's not okay. Where is the consistency? There isn't any.

Look at someone new coming onto the board. Typically, they'll lurk until they get a feel for the board and then jump in. If they see those personal attacks being A-OK, they'll more than likely follow suit.

Big pokes cross the line immediately. Little pokes need to add up before it becomes too much.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Look at someone new coming onto the board. Typically, they'll lurk until they get a feel for the board and then jump in. If they see those personal attacks being A-OK, they'll more than likely follow suit.

Big pokes cross the line immediately. Little pokes need to add up before it becomes too much.

Maybe Looger believed the little pokes had finally added up, and were too much? I'm certainly there myself with this guy, he detracts from the Board in a big way.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Open season would lead to bigger issues.

Take Looger's comment in this thread. If it's open season on White Doors, then that would be okay.. then he says it to someone else and it's not okay. Where is the consistency? There isn't any.

Look at someone new coming onto the board. Typically, they'll lurk until they get a feel for the board and then jump in. If they see those personal attacks being A-OK, they'll more than likely follow suit.

Big pokes cross the line immediately. Little pokes need to add up before it becomes too much.

True, but had the gay comment not landed looger in the sin bin, I would've expected a few posters to call him out for it, myself included.

it's all a touchy issue, I don't propose to know the be-all-end-all answer, because I don't think there is one. However, more careful moderation of those types of posts is warranted, in my opinion.

edit: what I'd really like to see is everyone on the forum simply ignore him, because regardless of your position, he detracts from actual discussion.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

edit: what I'd really like to see is everyone on the forum simply ignore him, because regardless of your position, he detracts from actual discussion.

That only works to a certain extent. I've got White Doors on ignore, and can't see the majority of his posts, but that gives him catre blanche to attack my position and make belittling remarks without rebutal. Is that fair? I've been PMed by people to outline his shots at me. That's garbage when people have to do that. The ignore list only does so much. This guy adds nothing to the site and only detracts from some quality threads. Ignore doesn't prevent that.