I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[Ashasx]

well probably schlemko

[JiriHrdina]

Team didn't have the money to sign him at the time.
As has been widely reported.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I'm not sure what heat Treliving should take. What questionable moves has he really made? In fairness, he's had a pretty easy job to do with a roster that was literally rebuilding from scratch, and Monaghan and Gaudreau already drafted and in the pipe. So what can we actually critique?

- Drafting Bennett 4th overall? Maybe, time will tell
- Trading 15 for Hamilton and signing him at 5.5
- Drafting Tachuck?
- Signing the Gio extension? This on scares me.
- signing the Bouma extension? Bad contract but minor pain IMO.
- Frolik and Brouwer UFA. Maybe.
- Monaghan or Gaudreau extensions?
- Extending Hartley - to me this was his biggest mistake. Not because I don't like Hartley or because I love GG, but clearly Gartley wasn't his guy or the guy he saw taking this team where it needed to go. Clearly he'd have removed Hartley earlier if it weren't for the run and the JA award, and we'd like be further ahead if he had given thus learning curve.
- Goalie situation still not resolved, but not like he had anything to work with when he started.

Those are what jump out to me as his big moves. I'm not saying they are all great, but if we are upset with Tree, we should know why other than team isn't winning so we're mad.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I'm more interested in the players he let go that are performing well for cheaper.

Paul Byron sure. We all know that.
Colborne? Nothing since the hat-trick
Hudler? Has barely played
Russel? Is the same guy in Edmonton that he was here
Jooris?

Who am I missing?

Huselius
Schlemko
Marty St.Louis

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I'm more interested in the players he let go that are performing well for cheaper.

Paul Byron sure. We all know that.
Colborne? Nothing since the hat-trick
Hudler? Has barely played
Russel? Is the same guy in Edmonton that he was here
Jooris?

Who am I missing?

Derek Grant had a good game tonight.

Also, Granlund was decent here. Shinkaruk isn't better so far and might never be.

[bubbsy]

Who's monaghan?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Derek Grant had a good game tonight.

Also, Granlund was decent here. Shinkaruk isn't better so far and might never be.

Derek Grant has 2 assists in 19 games.

If Derek Grant and Markus Granlund are the examples being used, then it isn't very compelling.

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Team didn't have the money to sign him at the time.
As has been widely reported.

Only because Treliving aquired Dougie Hamilton. Would've been plenty of money available to sign Schlemko

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Derek Grant has 2 assists in 19 games.

If Derek Grant and Markus Granlund are the examples being used, then it isn't very compelling.

I knew you'd post this. I don't care either. I think the GM is overrated and his lauded "process" gets far too much rope around here.

His trades and hirings from Vancouver, a team Hartley and his old staff pounded to dust in 6 games, are what bug me the most.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

I knew you'd post this. I don't care either. I think the GM is overrated and his lauded "process" gets far too much rope around here.

His trades and hirings from Vancouver, a team Hartley and his old staff pounded to dust in 6 games, are what bug me the most.

OK but that's not what we were talking about here.
The poster said that a bunch of guys he let go were performing better for cheaper.
So far I haven't heard any compelling examples.

[bigrangy]

^Yes, because we would totally be doing better without Hamilton.

For a team that has been as bad as this one is, it's hard to criticize Treliving. He has made some definite mistakes (Raymond, Engelland, Bouma, Schlemko, Nakladal, Brouwer), but he has either owned up to them (bought out Raymond), or learned from them (not extending Colborne after he rode Backlund like Bouma did). He's not really suffered for his other mistakes though. Engelland is somehow not the problem anymore, and Schlemko and Nakladal bounced around a bit even after they left. Hopefully Vegas can bail him out of the Brouwer signing but I'm not holding my breath.

He has made some absolutely fantastic moves. (Signing Brodie, getting Hamilton (paying him was only about league average though), Backlund extension, not caving on JG's extension). I've liked his drafting and his overall team direction.

It's unfortunate, although fair, for him that his entire tenure will be judged on the success of Gulutzan. Treliving's positives have far outweighed his negatives so far but it will all come down to whether GG is an effective coach. The Flames looked like they turned a bit of a corner recently, but this is still very up in the air.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

OK but that's not what we were talking about here.
The poster said that a bunch of guys he let go were performing better for cheaper.
So far I haven't heard any compelling examples.

As you said, they can't use Byron, so the list gets shorter by default. This isn't my main beef with Treliving anyway.

If this team drafts top 6 again that will be their third he's called to the podium.

Look, I don't want Brad to go full Sutter before he gets fired. He's got a decent core in place, but he didn't need to trade for Chiasson, or sign Brouwer. If the expectations from Murray Edwards & co. are on par with what's happening, it doesn't jive with the money they spent.

[bubbsy]

In the 2 seasons where treliving has actually had an impact on the roster, the flames have finished bottom 5 and are point %'wise the worst team in the entire league this year.

Treliving has proven absolutely nothing in his ability to building a winning hockey team. May be this is all a "process" for him also.

I'm beginning to consider that the flames wont be a real contender during my entire 30s (am 35). Ugh I'm a slave to this garbage.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I hope we fire Treliving before he screws up the expansion draft and the cap space coming in this offseason. The team he's building is a figment of his imagination as all his signings reek the day he makes them and the players he inexplicably lets go outperform them at lower costs.

Often times you make logical and compelling points. Here however you fail to provide proof or examples.

Teams leading scorer is Frolik, a signing that contradicts what you've said.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

As you said, they can't use Byron, so the list gets shorter by default. This isn't my main beef with Treliving anyway.

If this team drafts top 6 again that will be their third he's called to the podium.

Look, I don't want Brad to go full Sutter before he gets fired. He's got a decent core in place, but he didn't need to trade for Chiasson, or sign Brouwer. If the expectations from Murray Edwards & co. are on par with what's happening, it doesn't jive with the money they spent.

I think Brouwer has been fine - one of the more consistent forwards.

As I've said before, I think one of the hallmarks of good organizations is consistency. The organizations that lose perpetually (including this one) have constant turnover at key positions and within management.

Re-building an organization, that has been woefully thin on assets, doesn't happen over night.
Firing a GM every 3 years is a basically a guarantee that you will go nowhere forever.

He has shown to be a shrewd trader, good negotiator and overall has made more good moves than bad.

Give the man time.

Or fire him, bring someone new in and fire them in 3 years. Rinse and repeat. Like every other loser organization out there.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think Brouwer has been fine - one of the more consistent forwards.

As I've said before, I think one of the hallmarks of good organizations is consistency. The organizations that lose perpetually (including this one) have constant turnover at key positions and within management.

Re-building an organization, that has been woefully thin on assets, doesn't happen over night.
Firing a GM every 3 years is a basically a guarantee that you will go nowhere forever.

He has shown to be a shrewd trader, good negotiator and overall has made more good moves than bad.

Give the man time.

Or fire him, bring someone new in and fire them in 3 years. Rinse and repeat. Like every other loser organization out there.

Ok, but even Treliving gave Hartley a contract extension, then fired him before it was up.

Pittsburgh fires coaches and GM's when it's necessary. Crosby has two cups with coaches they hired in December.

I don't think the Flames have patience.

[JiriHrdina]

Sure. And if he concluded Hartley wasn't his guy then he should have fired him. Being patient doesn't mean you don't make moves.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Non Paul Byron examples please.

I don't really care if Hudler's been hurt, he is a better hockey player than Troy Brouwer.

I love Frolik, but he is not a better hockey player than Mike Cammalleri.

I briefly bought into the Jokipakka kool-aid but Jokipakka is not better than Russell. In fact the only time he's actually looked good was when he was playing with Nakldal in a sheltered third pair role and Nakladal was getting everything on net. Never mind actually signing Grossmann, whom the coach had pure nepotistic relationship with.

Raymond and Engelland are not better hockey players than Stempniak and Schlemko. I'll give Treliving a pass on Schlemko only because he's the one who brought Schlemko in (albeit by sheer chance with Giordano injured). And yes, Stempniak was dealt just before Tre got here. But not only was Treliving personally familiar with the player, the player hardly signed elsewhere right away, whereas Mason Raymond was a day one signing.

Freddie Hamilton has not been better than Josh Jooris, although that's a pretty minor one. Jooris has been hurt anyways so I guess Treliving lucked into a player not getting hurt.

Hell, I'd argue Glencross and Jones are outperforming Alex Chiasson. Right Now.

Do I think Treliving has made some good moves WRT minor league deals and prospects? yes I do. But it is all for naught if he is going to shackle this team down at the NHL level with bad signings every year. Bad signings are not made sensible just because he keeps preaching that "term is the killer, not AAV". Bad contracts are bad contracts if they make your team worse.

This team has gotten progressively worse since he's started to make his mark on it.

Oh, and while he may talk about Hartley's puck possession as a valid excuse to fire him, he himself has brought in all the worst puck possession players on this team with the sole exception of Wideman. The LA Kings got better by not only hiring Darryl Sutter - but by trading Jack Johnson away. Treliving's steadfast refusal to admit certain players are possession black holes becausre they fit some aesthetic criteria he has laid out does not justify his actions. He almost brought in Lauri Korpikoski, the worst possession player in the NHL - but we lucked out that another team signed him before Tre could. Grossmann and Engelland are statistically two of the three worst penalty killers in the NHL over the last, I forget, four years, and we literally went into the season expecting these guys to make a difference on the PK.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Sure. And if he concluded Hartley wasn't his guy then he should have fired him. Being patient doesn't mean you don't make moves.

Nope, they should have honored the contract and got a new goalie.

Gulutzan was a huge variable to change with team chemistry. This happened to Keenan. Didn't even get to finish his contract out.

The Flames fire their coaches who lose in the playoffs.

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

The Flames fire their coaches who lose in the playoffs.

And they replace them with coaches who implement super boring systems, and don't make the playoffs.