Fire Gulutzan/Give him Coach of the year All Purpose Thread

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Igottago

We've seen these players deliver. When have we seen GG deliver? What indication is there that he will?

Also, I can't speak for everyone, but I never thought Hartley was to blame. He did a great job as a coach here.

I agree with this. I thought the results were acceptable from Hartley. The year before last, everyone knew constant comebacks were not going to be sustainable but despite the growing pains last season, I felt there was a lot to grow on if we kept some continuity at the helm. Firing Hartley and hiring GG was like Peter Griffin giving up the boat for the mystery box. It's basically starting the process all over as most coaches need at least a full season the experiment and work things out. As soon as you change the coach or GM, you are almost always going to take a step back at first.

And just like how there are people always blaming the coaching, there are always people who never blame the coach. I would also be willing to bet that most of the people who supported letting Hartley go didn't like the hire to begin with and have a confirmation bias. For the record, I didn't like it at first either. With GG I was willing to take a wait and see approach, but the early returns are looking just like how I expected them to.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I agree with this. I thought the results were acceptable from Hartley. The year before last, everyone knew constant comebacks were not going to be sustainable but despite the growing pains last season, I felt there was a lot to grow on if we kept some continuity at the helm. Firing Hartley and hiring GG was like Peter Griffin giving up the boat for the mystery box. It basically starting the process all over as most coaches need at least a full season the experiment and work things out. As soon as you change the coach or GM, you are almost always going to take a step back at first.

And just like how there are people always blaming the coaching, there are always people who never blame the coach. I would also be willing to bet that most of the people who supported letting Hartley go didn't like the hire to begin with and have a confirmation bias.

Agreed, Hartley also got career best performances out of many players, lets not forget that. Simply put it was too early to pull the plug on him. As you stated, last year was probably a natural step back in the rebuild process, its never a linear progression. This year could've been 2 steps forward. The Flames bungled the coaching change.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Igottago

We've seen these players deliver. When have we seen GG deliver? What indication is there that he will?

Also, I can't speak for everyone, but I never thought Hartley was to blame. He did a great job as a coach here

These players certainly didn't deliver last season. Is being out of the race early and then getting some meaningless wins late in the year the bar for delivering?

We don't know a lot about GG but early returns aren't great, but it isn't surprising that Hartley was dismissed given last season, and underlying metrics.

Again, for me, its on the players.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

These players certainly didn't deliver last season. Is being out of the race early and then getting some meaningless wins late in the year the bar for delivering?

We don't know a lot about GG but early returns aren't great, but it isn't surprising that Hartley was dismissed given last season, and underlying metrics.

Again, for me, its on the players.

No, but it could be a sign they were figuring it out. As I stated above, rebuilding is not a simple linear progression. I think the young Flames were learning a lot in the Hartley era. The fact that players individually continued to get better and better proved that IMO. The team success just took a dip last season.

The other thing that is missing now is culture. Hartley brought some presence and motivational ability with him. Established things like always earned never given. Was never shy about being vocal behind the bench.

The new staff has none of that. I see a team that has lost its identity.

[flamesfever]

Both my son and I, as long time STHs, gasped when Hartley was fired. We said at the time that it was the wrong move, and it looks like we may be right.

Although, like everything in life, there are always two sides to every story, and who knows what went on behind the scenes to cause the move.

I think it's still too early to make rash judgements...things could still turn around for us. In my experience with the team, when things look the worse, they usually get better.

[Alpine Fisher]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Both my son and I, as long time STHs, gasped when Hartley was fired. We said at the time that it was the wrong move, and it looks like we may be right.

Although, like everything in life, there are always two sides to every story, and who knows what went on behind the scenes to cause the move.

I think it's still too early to make rash judgements...things could still turn around for us. In my experience with the team, when things look the worse, they usually get better.

DQ Ice Cream Cakes

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Igottago

No, but it could be a sign they were figuring it out. As I stated above, rebuilding is not a simple linear progression. I think the young Flames were learning a lot in the Hartley era. The fact that players individually continued to get better and better proved that IMO. The team success just took a dip last season.

The other thing that is missing now is culture. Hartley brought some presence and motivational ability with him. Established things like always earned never given. Was never shy about being vocal behind the bench.

The new staff has none of that. I see a team that has lost its identity.

Identity and culture take time to establish.
But GG is not Hartley. So people should stop wanting him to be like him.

[flamesrule_kipper34]

I'm going to preface this by saying, I was not a fan of the GG hiring (or any of the coaching decisions for that matter going into this season...firing Hartley, retaining Gelinas and bringing in Cameron notably).

That being said, unfortunately, I can see why Hartley was let go...as a person I loved him to death but if you take an honest look at the metrics they were bad. The conversations of losing players in the room, I didn't see any of that on the ice I honestly did not. But perhaps I'm not as good at reading things like that for on the ice performance.

Now onto this season and some of what I'm seeing spewed towards Treliving.

If Trelving manged to grab a roster full of Weber's, Subban's, Crosby's, Kane's and Towes' and these were the results would we be saying the same thing? I highly doubt it. Let's be honest, minus the price he paid for a few UFA's (arguably), I think collectively most lauded his moves and his re-signings (including most of the prices at the market rate). Also think about how well his UFA's of this summer are playing at the moment, Johnson and Brouwer are playing great. Elliott is NOT passing the eye test but I think he deserves some benefit of time here.

So why is this suddenly all his fault? The players are LARGELY to blame coupled with the adjustment period to a new coach, new system and training camp that missed some notables (i.e. Gaudreau and Monahan).

The one thing that needs to play out more is his signing of GG, I wasn't a fan but that is largely due to the fact that I didn't see him as a flashy hiring and didn't know much about him. I'm waiting to see things play out, yes things look pretty bleak right now and I wouldn't be surprised or upset if he were fired ASAP but I highly doubt that will happen.

This realistically is the only thing I'm currently judging Treliving on at the moment.

The players NEED to step up, it is absolutely atrocious watching Gio, Monahan, D. Hamilton play the way they are. Wideman I no longer expect anything and Gaudreau is starting to come around it seems like but the top players as a group are playing like hot garbage. This rests on THEM.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

You may be tired of this. But I'm equally tired of fans who blame coach after coach and excuse bad play from guys paid top dollar to deliver.
Blaming the coach is just too easy

Agreed 100%. It's like last year when people blamed Treliving for the 3 goalie thing. That's such BS. If you're so mentally weak that the thought of Joni Ortio, Kari Ramo, or Jonas Hiller (none of whom have an NHL contract this year) taking your job rattled you, that's on the player, not the GM.

Blaming the coaches and GM's is too easy. Do they deserve some criticism? Yes absolutely, but this is 90% on the players.

[activeStick]

I don't understand what people expected with a new system that is apparently so different from the one before... The team wasn't going to come out, gel and break the doors down to start... Old habits are hard to break...

[ComixZone]

I'm not a fan of what Gulutzan and co. are putting on the ice, but the issues go beyond just the coaches.

Right now, through 6 games - we're a slow, passive, poorly structured, and poorly coached team. To point to any one thing, whether it be the coaching, Giordano's abysmal start, Monahan's invisible compete level, Hamilton's giveaways, Brodie's sudden inability to skate, and claim that's the issue is probably off-base. Too many things are going wrong right now to point out any one aspect of the team as the point of failure. The whole team is a mess, and I can't help but think Treliving is utterly terrified right now.

[442scotty]

These guys have been playing hockey since they could walk... And I'm sure they have played a lot of different systems over the years... Did GG reinvent the game? Maybe his system is great on paper.... Not so great in the real world? How hard can it be for a bunch of pro's who are supposed to be so intelligent...

This isn't fun right now... Glad I'm not a season ticket holder

[CaptainCrunch]

So after 6 games, the response is, fire the coach, seriously?

This thread is silly.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Agreed 100%. It's like last year when people blamed Treliving for the 3 goalie thing. That's such BS. If you're so mentally weak that the thought of Joni Ortio, Kari Ramo, or Jonas Hiller (none of whom have an NHL contract this year) taking your job rattled you, that's on the player, not the GM.

Blaming the coaches and GM's is too easy. Do they deserve some criticism? Yes absolutely, but this is 90% on the players.

Sure, but there were also hockey experts and former goalies explaining that it's well known that rotating three goalies causes issues in goaltending performance.

Even Brad himself stated before the season that he wanted to get the goalie situation dealt with quickly because he knew it would be a distraction, but didn't because he was worried about losing Ortio on waivers (which is actually quite the hilarious worry in hindsight, but I get it at the time).

It's not just a "I feel my job isn't secure" psychological issue, it's an issue of routine, practice time and rhythm. So yes it definitely was strike against team management and not just the goalies. However the bigger issue last season was the actual talent level of our goaltenders, the three headed monster just made undesirable goaltending likely even worse to start the year.

[bucksmasher]

So ya know like.......

[GranteedEV]

For all the complaining about Gulutzan's systems, the Flames at score-adjusted 5v5 (where the word "system" usually refers to) are 10th in goals per 60 minutes and 18th in goals against per 60 minutes so far.

Last year at 5v5 we were 12th in goals per 60 minutes and 28th in goals against per 60 minutes 5-on-5

The issue is way more simple than people are making it out to be:
5v5 play could be improved, but Special Teams have been awful. Thing is though, last year they were awful too. Or did people forget how we went like two straight months last year without a power play goal? Or how the only saving grace on our PK was that we played such a passive 5-on-5 style that we weren't penalized often (but at the expense of 5-on-5 goals against).

Let's face it, Gulutzan needs to be better but the players are mostly the same as last year's team, which did not start looking competent until December. I still believe in this group, but I am also not deluded into thinking that Gulutzan is dragging them down like an anvil. The best players have not been the best players.

[Alpine Fisher]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So after 6 games, the response is, fire the coach, seriously?

This thread is silly.

Give it time Captain Crunch. You'll come around

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So after 6 games, the response is, fire the coach, seriously?

This thread is silly.

Silly isn't a strong enough word.

[topfiverecords]

Gulutzan is the porcupine at the balloon party Hartley was warning us about.

[Mister Yamoto]

Tough part of the schedule coming up. Looks like it's almost time for someone to put up a reverse standings/draft watch thread.