[GDT] Young Stars Classic: The Battle of Alberta (8:30 PM MT)

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

By a few I hope you meant at least a a half dozen.

Six in two games? Maybe. But to the point where they were problematic for an 18 year old in a prospects camp? No way.

There has been way more positives to his two games. I've been watching in person and he's skating and handling the puck with top level skill. I've heard fans of other rival fanbases praising him.

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

By a few I hope you meant at least a a half dozen. Saying Kylington will be a star is so far fetched. He doesn't look like he has the smarts to be a star since he has been playing like this for years and doesn't seem to be learning.

The echl is where players like him go. He can't play like that in the AHL and will be benched if he does.

The comparisons to Brodie are absurd. Brodie didn't pinch even 1/10th as much as him or make high risk plays as often as him. Brodie once in a while was prone to brain farts not dangling the blue line with nobody back.

There's just so much wrong with this I'm not even going to bother. It's like we're watching two different players. Completely over-dramatic towards the negative.

[calgaryblood]

Disagree all you want. That's my take on him. He has potential but he plays too risky for my liking.

I know he skates at a high level and handles the puck great. He wasn't drafted for his defensive game.

He needs to tone down the risky plays but I don't know if he can do that and still be effective. Justin Schultz learned the hard way that you can't always take risks.


And calling me over dramatic is funny. You take every post to heart.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Disagree all you want. That's my take on him. He has potential but he plays too risky for my liking.

I know he skates at a high level and handles the puck great. He wasn't drafted for his defensive game.

He needs to tone down the risky plays but I don't know if he can do that and still be effective. Justin Schultz learned the hard way that you can't always take risks.

You can have concerns about his game without the massive hyperbole.

Suggesting he's ECHL bound and would be "benched in the AHL" when he just spent the season in the A and made great strides in his defensive game (according to Ryan Huska) just makes your post sound sensationalized. I don't see how that's not being over-dramatic when you just said he'll be benched in a league he just played a year in.

[calgaryblood]

Look at his AHL stats. 12 points and a -15. How patient can the Flames be? I don't doubt they will consider sending him down if he keeps his subpar play up especially defensively.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Look at his AHL stats. 12 points and a -15. How patient can the Flames be? I don't doubt they will consider sending him down if he keeps his subpar play up especially defensively.

You mean his 18 year old season? How patient should they be?

Who was the last defenseman you watched play in the AHL at 18?

You're just digging a hole here

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Look at his AHL stats. 12 points and a -15.

As an 18 year old. Have you listened to the analysis of the Stockton coaching staff who all spoke highly of the improvements he made in his first pro season at that age?

“He really did a good job,” said Ryan Huska, Calgary’s American Hockey League coach in Stockton. “He was a little less high-risk and made smarter decisions with the puck and learned how to defend. I think he came down there and did an excellent job.

“Even hearing from some guys yesterday, they were impressed at how he was using his stick to his advantage. We were really pleased at how that side of his game has come along.”

http://www.calgarysun.com/2016/07/07...-american-game

You opinion is contrary to everything said about him after this last season in the AHL (never mind the fact you just said he'd be benched in that league as a whole).

[hockey.modern]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

As an 18 year old. Have you listened to the analysis of the Stockton coaching staff who all spoke highly of the improvements he made in his first pro season at that age?



You opinion is contrary to everything said about him after this last season in the AHL (never mind the fact you just said he'd be benched in that league as a whole).

Not to mention him moving across the sea, and living in North America for the very first time. Huge life-changing moment as an 18 year old.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Look at his AHL stats. 12 points and a -15. How patient can the Flames be? I don't doubt they will consider sending him down if he keeps his subpar play up especially defensively.

He just turned 19. Most defenceman are either NHL ready from the start (Ekblad) or play in the juniors for a while (Anderssen). Kylington was a special case and played in the AHL instead of juniors where it would have been best for him. Hes playing in a man's league on a bad Heat team.

[sun]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Yea I totally fabricated how before admitting you missed most of the game your first and key focus was pointing out Tkachuk's penalty, which was in line with and attempting to justify your over-reaction from yesterday.

Yes, exactly. Takes a big man to admit when they are wrong, I am impressed. Didn't think you had it in you. You obviously re-read my posts, realized you had erred and have offered an olive branch of friendship. Consider it accepted!

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by sun

Yes, exactly. Takes a big man to admit when they are wrong, I am impressed. Didn't think you had it in you. You obviously re-read my posts, realized you had erred and have offered an olive branch of friendship. Consider it accepted!

Just like when you're looking at box-scores instead of actual game-play, it's important you see what you want to see. Makes life easier.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Way too many arguments based on a prospects game where players are on the ice for the first time in a long time, and where systems are barely being used. Seems like a fool's errand to try and extrapolate these games into long-term career projections.

MacDonald needs work. Yep - he is a prospect. All these kids need work, particularly goalies.

Kylington needs work in his defensive acumen. Big surprise there too. If you followed him in the AHL, he became a coach favorite and played stretches on the top pairing, and made almost godly defensive plays at times too. He just needs to continue what SO FAR has been steady development in that area so he can be consistently good at it. But let's write that off altogether because he made a few mistakes in shinny.

But hey, Jankowski sucked and was way too big of a reach and has zero chance of becoming an NHL'er.

Brodie doesn't know where the defensive zone is, and will never have any semblance of a career in the NHL.

I am always wary of putting any sort of restrictions on prospects early on in their career. You never know how they will pan out. You never know how seriously they focus on the holes in their games and how they manage to overcome them. You can't always go back and point to another prospect who busted and looked like he was a similar player and say "there's the proof".

These are glorified shinny games for players early in their careers. There is no point of placing ceilings or, conversely, grandiose sky-high expectations based on what we see here.

I take interest in these things for two reasons:

1) Entertainment
2) To get a look at what skill-levels some prospects have

Kylington (for me) is the most purely skilled player for the Flames. Fun to watch. Anything comments regarding what I think he projects to be are based on the extensive scouting reports on him leading up to the draft, and watching whatever games I could of him in the last 3 years or so. Even then, that is all it is - my own projections that can fall way short of where he actually progresses, or will look like silly homerish dreams.

No point in arguing until you are blue in the face - at least not because of a single performance in a glorified shinny game.

It always makes me shake my head at how negative some posters can be on prospects who are JUST starting their pro careers (or even, have JUST been drafted). Things like "Kanzig sucks and will never make it", "What on Earth were the Flames thinking with taking Smith so high??". When a poster gets too excited on a prospect, at least I can smile while I shake my head. Overly negative just comes off as annoying.

Before anyone blasts me for saying: "This is a forum where we discuss.." - I will save you the post. This is a forum. If you want to blast a prospect for a play, or for a continuous series of bad plays - go for it. I have done so too. What I am referring to in particular is the "This kid's a bust" type of posts with no insights, or where you are basing your opinion after not watching the kid play outside of a tiny sample size. It doesn't make sense.

It is like me running into Heidi Kluum (or insert your favorite supermodel here) after she worked out hard, mowed the lawn, and perhaps fell in some mud. I then go out and say: "Heidi is ok, but she will never make it as a supermodel. She is always sweaty, tired looking, dresses in rags and is actually really dirty."

Just my opinion, but carry on if you wish making proclamations based on the first couple of games between players with no chemistry, and without structure, and with and against all different types of players mashed together in a short tournament.

[Pizza]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Dwelling on it to the point where it's the first and only thing you're focusing on with regard to his game is not. Something it seems you're starting to do as well.

Again you're failing to read properly.

Where have i focused on Tkachuk's negatives in this game? I have only suggested Sun's argument is justified

Please stop making things up to support your arguments, again

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

(... long post... )

Excellent post.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Pizza

Again you're failing to read properly.

Kind of like you and your jumbled mess of mis-reading and insinuating I said Lemieux initiated the incident in game one?

Originally Posted by Pizza

Where have i focused on Tkachuk's negatives in this game? I have only suggested Sun's argument is justified

Please stop making things up to support your arguments, again

Sun wasn't arguing anything. He was focusing on Tkachuk's PIMs in a game he didn't see because he was upset he was called on dramatizing the game prior.

[Pizza]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Kind of like you and your jumbled mess of mis-reading and insinuating I said Lemieux initiated the incident in game one?





Sun wasn't arguing anything. He was focusing on Tkachuk's PIMs in a game he didn't see because he was upset he was called on dramatizing the game prior.

Jumbled mess? I admitted I misinterpreted what you wrote once. You, on the other hand couldnt even spot the most obvious sentence put in front of you, multiple times.

Are you still having trouble finding where people supported the elbow? You replied in that thread but completely ignored what was pointed out to you

An argument is synomym for putting forward an opinion, which is what Sun was doing

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Look at his AHL stats. 12 points and a -15. How patient can the Flames be? I don't doubt they will consider sending him down if he keeps his subpar play up especially defensively.

How patient can the Flames be? The answer is very.

His ELC hasn't even started yet, and unless he plays in Calgary for a certain amount of games this year it will slide again. After two years in the AHL Kylington will just be starting his ELC, having three more years remaining. The Flames can afford all the patience in the world.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Look at his AHL stats. 12 points and a -15. How patient can the Flames be?

Okay let's ponder for a moment:

Shayne Gostisbehere was 19...the September right after Philly drafted him. He just made his NHL debut at 22.

Josh Morrissey has been in Winnipeg's system since the Monahan draft.... he was -8 in the AHL with 22 points in 57 games - this year.

Duncan Keith was 22 in his NHL rookie season

TJ Brodie was basically our #6D in his 21 year old rookie season

Mark Giordano was basically our #6/#7D in his 23 year old rookie season.

Johnny Boychuk finally cracked an NHL roster at age 26.

Keith Yandle was -15 as an AHL rookie. At Age 20.

PK Subban spent his entire 20 year old season in the AHL, and then found himself playing in the NHL playoffs on a team that should not have been in the playoffs because the Flames had a better record and yes this is a tangent I am still bitter about

Nicklas Lidstrom made his NHL debut at age 21

18 year old Anton Stralman was -10 in the Swedish Tier 1 League. 16 year old Kylington was +5 in the Swedish Tier 1 league.

Kylington has exactly one timeline: the timeline before we risk losing him to waivers. That is four years from now. It's the only timeline that matters.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Okay let's ponder for a moment:

Shayne Gostisbehere was 19...the September right after Philly drafted him. He just made his NHL debut at 22.

Josh Morrissey has been in Winnipeg's system since the Monahan draft.... he was -8 in the AHL with 22 points in 57 games - this year.

Duncan Keith was 22 in his NHL rookie season

TJ Brodie was basically our #6D in his 21 year old rookie season

Mark Giordano was basically our #6/#7D in his 23 year old rookie season.

Johnny Boychuk finally cracked an NHL roster at age 26.

Keith Yandle was -15 as an AHL rookie. At Age 20.

PK Subban spent his entire 20 year old season in the AHL, and then found himself playing in the NHL playoffs on a team that should not have been in the playoffs because the Flames had a better record and yes this is a tangent I am still bitter about

Nicklas Lidstrom made his NHL debut at age 21

18 year old Anton Stralman was -10 in the Swedish Tier 1 League. 16 year old Kylington was +5 in the Swedish Tier 1 league.

Kylington has exactly one timeline: the timeline before we risk losing him to waivers. That is four years from now. It's the only timeline that matters.

None of these guys really seem like good comparables for Kylington.

They are mostly guys that were behind the curve coming up to the draft and then showed enormous growth afterwards.

Kylington was coming into his draft season touted as a potential top5 pick and then fell all the way to the end of the second round.

I'm curious if there are any defensemen out there that were very highly touted coming into their draft season, fell right out of the first round and then recovered to have a strong career.

Jiri Hudler is perhaps the biggest faller I can think of that had a good career. I think he was projected to go mid first round, and fell to the end of the second.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

None of these guys really seem like good comparables for Kylington.

They are mostly guys that were behind the curve coming up to the draft and then showed enormous growth afterwards.

Kylington was coming into his draft season touted as a potential top5 pick and then fell all the way to the end of the second round.

I'm curious if there are any defensemen out there that were very highly touted coming into their draft season, fell right out of the first round and then recovered to have a strong career.

Jiri Hudler is perhaps the biggest faller I can think of that had a good career. I think he was projected to go mid first round, and fell to the end of the second.

Kylington's fall was mostly due to his attitude and the fact he battled with his coach. Yes, his defensive game did not improve, but he also was not given the proper methods to improve it. Because of those two things, he dropped off to 60th. He still has put up better numbers at each respective age than Erik Karlsson offensively, and has improved significantly defensively. Is he still a work in progress? Yes. Is Erik Karlsson an adventure in his own zone at times even today? Yes.

The difference between Kylington's attitude problems and most other prospects is that his attitude comes from being overly confident in his own abilities, but not his lack of willingness to learn. He worked extensively with the coaching staff in Stockton last season and has improved immensely in his own zone. Still likely a year away to work on his D some more, but if he made the team out of camp this year, I would not be shocked either. I think he will be the first call up of any D if he does get sent down. I think he'll end up being the #4 next year paired with Hamilton assuming Jokipakka gets picked off in the expansion draft.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Kylington was also shuffled in his draft year between 3 teams, and received neither consistent coaching or consistent development.

Pre-draft year, he was ranked as the best defensive prospect (and Andersson ranked in the top 10 btw) - and many felt he would be the 3rd pick overall. He was widely regarded as a stud, but in his draft year fell, and I would say most of it was due to his shuffling from team to team.