Alberta Politics Thread

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Two things:

1) I don't think anyone has said spending cuts alone can't fix the budget issues. It's that if you choose spending cuts alone people need to be prepared for massive service cuts, which we all know everyone will whine about.

2) The article doesn't say 47,000; the verbatim line is "In just the last year, Alberta added tens of thousands of public-sector workers to the payroll". And since it's an opinion piece, probably more hyperbole than fact.

Short term pain for long term gain. It worked once, it can work again.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by chemgear

I mentioned it before in the thread but I think it's premature for people to believe (hope) that a second NDP government is not possible. We could easily be more than 80-100 billion in the hole by the time we potentially host the Olympics again.

I'll be happy if the NDP get a second term, but only because it would mean they somehow turned things around in a big way between now and then (which I don't see happening)

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Not on existing contracts, but as soon as those contracts are done, you are ####ing right they should go after pay reductions.

No one can defend pay raises for public servants who are already the highest paid in the country when we have had thousands of layoffs, multiple pay reductions, and higher taxes in the private sector.

I think the teacher's negotiation coming up will be really interesting.

The political climate in Alberta is such that it's quite reasonable to go hard on them and force them to take a cut. In fact, I would argue that the more enlightened PC voters would actually switch to NDP if they showed that they are willing to work with spending cuts too.

It's one of the rare instances that negotiating hard with those front line workers may be politically prudent because of how hard the private sector has been decimated.

I doubt the NDP would even entertain the thought though.

[Jacks]

Now would actually be the perfect time to fix the whole situation going forward. Clean up the government bloat drastically (Klein style) and get the budget to with a few billion without any resource revenues. Take on the unions now while the money isn't there, it's easier now than it will be later. Funnel all resource revenues into the Heritage Fund and pass legislation that 80% of the Heritage Fund's investment profits are put toward infrastructure spending/upgrades, not operating costs, 20% reinvested. If we had done that in the late 90's we would be in a lot better position today.

Do all of that first and then you can easily sell a PST but the belt tightening and cleaning up of the bloat needs to come first.

[CliffFletcher]

My biggest miscalculation in voting NDP was assuming that they would govern from the centre in order to try to get re-elected. It seems increasingly clear that they have no such ambition, and are using their term in office to protect their core supporters from the economic downturn, before going back to being an opposition party indefinitely.

[RubberDuck]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Well social issues start with health and education. The largest costs in the Province but also the largest services. By ensuring those weren't unilaterally slashed the NDP prevented a return to the late 90s where Klein all but decimated those services and had Alberta in the dark ages. The government is responsible for ensuring the provision of these services, yes they have become bloated but you simply can't knife down 10B dollars without a huge social cost.

Bill 6 was not a muff, it provides farm workers with fair and reasonable protections enjoyed by all other industries and farmers in the country. The right to refuse unsafe work is a cornerstone of workers rights and that was sorely missed.

The minimum wage increase was also a social issue more than an economic one. Alberta had the largest disparity between it's mean income and it's minimum wage meaning minimum wage earners were being more and more marginalized and unable to support themselves. If you think someone working full time deserves to need the food bank then I don't know what to say.

Bringing in environmental rules (and yes the carbon tax) to help bring Alberta into the global change. Every jurisdiction in the western world is needing to focus on it and ensure that something is done to help combat GHG emissions. It is not like the NDP unilaterally decided what action to take, they appointed a commission to come up with the best alternative, much better than the money waste hole that the Saskatchewan Carbon Capture experiment is. In fact when you look at NDP commissions there are a lot more industry involvement under them then there ever was environmental involvement under the previous government.


To think any other government would be fairing better is also naïve. They can't even be bothered to issue a shadow budget to show how things would be better. Brian Jean's entire platform was "no new taxes", not much to go on there but pandering to the uneducated who believe all taxes are bad. He would have put thousands more out of work and prayed that trickle down economics actually work.

I'm just looking for one person who would say, "Today, my life is better because of NDP social policy." Would the farm worker say that? I would argue that just the talk of a $15 minimum wage and the carbon tax have hurt many but to date have benefitted absolutely no one.

Also, it it that difficult to defend the NDP without bringing up the Wildrose or PC's? The NDP have a majority government. This is their baby and what the other parties "might" have done is completely irrelevant to anything happening in real life.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Short term pain for long term gain. It worked once, it can work again.

I have a question.

Did we actually get the "long term gain" we were promised from the last round of cuts?

Ever since "paid in Full," we seem to have a budget shortfall every other year that nibbled at "Stabilization Fund A" or "Rainy Day fund B"

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by RubberDuck

I'm just looking for one person who would say, "Today, my life is better because of NDP social policy." Would the farm worker say that? I would argue that just the talk of a $15 minimum wage and the carbon tax have hurt many but to date have benefitted absolutely no one.

Also, it it that difficult to defend the NDP without bringing up the Wildrose or PC's? The NDP have a majority government. This is their baby and what the other parties "might" have done is completely irrelevant to anything happening in real life.

My life is better because of the NDP. My tuition didn't skyrocket, I don't have to worry about class sizes for my kids, I don't have to worry that the environment is being ignored and I don't have to worry about more of my friends losing their jobs.

As for attacking, I was responding to the point that I was naïve to think any government would be having trouble in this economic situation.

My point wasn't to deflect, but to point out that if the PCs or Wildrose had any better ideas then they should be sharing them. If the Alberta Party can come up with a shadow budget to show how they would be better then shouldn't we expect the same from the official opposition, as that is their main role, to provide alternatives, not simply disagree for the fun of it.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by belsarius

My life is better because of the NDP. My tuition didn't skyrocket, I don't have to worry about class sizes for my kids, I don't have to worry that the environment is being ignored and I don't have to worry about more of my friends losing their jobs.

As for attacking, I was responding to the point that I was naïve to think any government would be having trouble in this economic situation.

My point wasn't to deflect, but to point out that if the PCs or Wildrose had any better ideas then they should be sharing them. If the Alberta Party can come up with a shadow budget to show how they would be better then shouldn't we expect the same from the official opposition, as that is their main role, to provide alternatives, not simply disagree for the fun of it.

How does that bolded part work? Do you mean that you just don't worry? I haven't seen the NDP doing anything to protect job loss, unless everyone you know works in the public sector?

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

I have a question.

Did we actually get the "long term gain" we were promised from the last round of cuts?

Ever since "paid in Full," we seem to have a budget shortfall every other year that nibbled at "Stabilization Fund A" or "Rainy Day fund B"

The biggest failing of Ralph Klein is that he had no plan for what to do once the debt had been slayed. That led to spending binges and Ralph bucks when we were rolling in cash. Then came Stelmach and Redford who were not fiscal conservatives at all and burned though the cash like termites. Getting the debt paid off was a huge accomplishement though and we have been benefiting ever since by not paying debt servicing costs. We are back to square one now unfortunately.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Slava

How does that bolded part work? Do you mean that you just don't worry? I haven't seen the NDP doing anything to protect job loss, unless everyone you know works in the public sector?

Yeah a lot of them are public sector, mostly teachers, some nurses. A few families where one of the them were oil and gas and lost their job and the only thing helping the family was that public sector income. Considering slash and burn would probably have put them on the street then yeah, I am glad for the NDP.

[LanceUppercut]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Yeah a lot of them are public sector, mostly teachers, some nurses. A few families where one of the them were oil and gas and lost their job and the only thing helping the family was that public sector income. Considering slash and burn would probably have put them on the street then yeah, I am glad for the NDP.

So protect your public service buddies at the expense of everyone else. You must totally be a card carrying NDP member.

[RubberDuck]

Originally Posted by Slava

How does that bolded part work? Do you mean that you just don't worry? I haven't seen the NDP doing anything to protect job loss, unless everyone you know works in the public sector?

He may not worry at all but if he does, and for that statement to make sense, this person:

A) has no friends
B) has friends, all work in NDP caucus or union
C) has wealthy friends that don't work
D) doesn't live in Alberta
E) has a very good prescription

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by LanceUppercut

So protect your public service buddies at the expense of everyone else. You must totally be a card carrying NDP member.

First off, nope I don't carry any political cards. I vote with the election, I don't tie myself to any one party, but voting for Redford was probably the biggest blunder in my voting life.

As for my public service buddies... why do they have to be fired just because Oil and Gas collapsed? Wouldn't you be happy if your friends weren't on the unemployment line? I know I feel bad for my brothers who both lost their jobs within weeks of each other because of the oil downturn.

Really it just leads back to my question of why do people think that reducing the debt suddenly helps the economy? Jobs aren't going to reappear just because we lay off 10,000 teachers.

People enter the public service to serve and help others. I just pity people like you who think just because they are working for the government means they are a lower class of people and deserve to be fired just because oil prices collapsed and you lost your job. Why are you more important than them?

Thank you for reminding me again why I voted for NDP. You might think they don't care, but you just showed me that you definitely don't.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by RubberDuck

He may not worry at all but if he does, and for that statement to make sense, this person:

A) has no friends
B) has friends, all work in NDP caucus or union
C) has wealthy friends that don't work
D) doesn't live in Alberta
E) has a very good prescription

Wow, having a nice discussion all day and then people just turn out with the pitchforks.


Thanks to everyone who wanted to discuss things and had an open opinion. I see the trolls are out for blood today so I am just going to exit stage left. (Get it? )

[Shazam]

No need to fire.

No need to hire though.

Going to school and having kids is tough. Given your terrible life choices you voted in your best interest.

Reminder kiddies: Pull out.

[northcrunk]

Some people just don't care about the people who don't suck of the government teet.

[RubberDuck]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Wow, having a nice discussion all day and then people just turn out with the pitchforks.


Thanks to everyone who wanted to discuss things and had an open opinion. I see the trolls are out for blood today so I am just going to exit stage left. (Get it? )

Well I wasn't wrong, it was B) wasn't it?

#sensitive

[northcrunk]

Rediculous:

http://business.financialpost.com/fp...ow-revenues-go

That’s a curious thing to see happening when resource revenues are projected to increase. After all, if Alberta is purportedly over-dependent on oil, and the government expects producers to get more money for that oil, why would companies pay less in taxes? And while the NDP raised the corporate tax rate from 10 to 12 per cent last summer, revenues are now projected to be roughly half-a-billion dollars lower than they were last year.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by belsarius

As for my public service buddies... why do they have to be fired just because Oil and Gas collapsed?

Why do we need so many people in the public service if the population of the province decreases?