Flames stars Sean Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau stick together

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I keep ALMOST jumping on board, and then you say something completely off base.

There are more good young 21 year old centres available than PPG 22 year old wingers?

Maybe... but how many are available? Do you know why they aren't available? Because they are crucial and incredibly hard to come by. Top wingers get traded more often (and seem to be in more rumours) than top centres.

And don't go saying we could just replace Monahan with Bennett. We don't even know if Bennett is any good yet.

I still can't figure out if you're just ridiculously overrating Gaudreau or criminally understating Monahan and the centre position in general. Honestly, it might be both, and that's a lot of things to be way off about.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I keep ALMOST jumping on board, and then you say something completely off base.

There are more good young 21 year old centres available than PPG 22 year old wingers?

Maybe... but how many are available? Do you know why they aren't available? Because they are crucial and incredibly hard to come by. Top wingers get traded more often (and seem to be in more rumours) than top centres.

And don't go saying we could just replace Monahan with Bennett. We don't even know if Bennett is any good yet.

I still can't figure out if you're just ridiculously overrating Gaudreau or criminally understating Monahan and the centre position in general. Honestly, it might be both, and that's a lot of things to be way off about.

I'm pretty sure everyone ignored everything after Gaudreau was said to be comparable to Ovechkin, Malkin, Iginla, and Fleury. I suggest you do the same...

[Since1984]

Originally Posted by party elephant

i think the kerry fraser bad calls were all of them?

fyp

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I keep ALMOST jumping on board, and then you say something completely off base.

There are more good young 21 year old centres available than PPG 22 year old wingers?

Maybe... but how many are available? Do you know why they aren't available? Because they are crucial and incredibly hard to come by. Top wingers get traded more often (and seem to be in more rumours) than top centres.

Young top line centers are certainly a huge requirement, but just in the last few years, we've seen a decent amount of good centers get traded at a very young age.

Johansen
Seguin
O'Reilly

I can't think of many PPG wingers who were traded at a young age.

The list of quality U24 centers is actually pretty large. That doesn't take anything away from Monahan's ability, but there are more players that could potentially replace Monahan then there are guys who could replace Johnny (not saying all these guys could easily replace Monahan, but most are trending in the right direction to becoming a top line center)

McDavid
Eichel
Matthews
Barkov
Kuznetsov
Seguin
Johansen
Mackinnon
Draisaitl
Monahan
Galchenyuk
Scheifele
Reinhart
Zibanejad
Larkin
RNH
Rask

+ D Strome, Bennett, Nylander etc as guys coming up.

And don't go saying we could just replace Monahan with Bennett. We don't even know if Bennett is any good yet.

I never said that.

I still can't figure out if you're just ridiculously overrating Gaudreau or criminally understating Monahan and the centre position in general. Honestly, it might be both, and that's a lot of things to be way off about.

Wait, my opinion that Gaudreau is more valuable than Monahan means that I'm overrating Gaudreau and underrating Monahan and the centre position in general?

If Monahan is more valuable than Gaudreau, then why would he make less money on the open market?

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

What happened in game 7? I think you mean game 6, but even then why are we blaming Kerry Fraser?

We were down by 1, and late in the 3rd period, Ference crushed Fedetenko with a clean hit (in those days). Fraser called a penalty... basically ending the SCF right then and there.

Atleast that's all I remember from Game 7.


EDIT: Obviously I don't remember as well as I thought. We were down by 1, not 2, and the hit was on St. Louis, not Fedetenko.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

We were down by 2, and late in the 3rd period, Ference crushed Fedetenko with a clean hit (in those days). Fraser called a penalty... basically ending the SCF right then and there.

Atleast that's all I remember from Game 7.

To be fair a make up call was made about 10 seconds later.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

We were down by 1, and late in the 3rd period, Ference crushed St. Louis with a clean hit (in those days). Fraser called a penalty... basically ending the SCF right then and there.

Atleast that's all I remember from Game 7.

4:58 of this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVEKeDVAzr0

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

We were down by 2, and late in the 3rd period, Ference crushed Fedetenko with a clean hit (in those days). Fraser called a penalty... basically ending the SCF right then and there.

Atleast that's all I remember from Game 7.

I think it was Ference bloodying up St. Louis behind the Flames net and Fraser called it as interference. it might have been an ok call on a Tuesday night in February, but after an entire series were guys were engaged in bone crunching combat, Fraser suddenly feels the need to tighten things up with 1 minute to go in game 7 of the SCF.

I might even be remembering this other part wrong but I have this image of Iggy freaking out on Kerry and even giving him a bit of a shove. did that really happen or was it just in my head?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

If Monahan is more valuable than Gaudreau, then why would he make less money on the open market?

Teams pay for points Alex Tanguay always made more than Robyn Regehr too.

There is also no evidence Gaudreau would make more than Monahan on the open market. Teams would be salivating for either.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

To be fair a make up call was made about 10 seconds later.

Ference penalty @ 18:58
Andreychuk penalty @ 19:38

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

I'm pretty sure everyone ignored everything after Gaudreau was said to be comparable to Ovechkin, Malkin, Iginla, and Fleury. I suggest you do the same...

After further review, I'm going to go ahead and take this advice.

[The Fonz]

Can't we all just agree that Johnny Gaudreau is the best Dman this team has had since Petr Buzek? He gonna get paid.

[TheIronMaiden]

The only thing Gaudreau will ever amount to is being a smaller, more skilled, faster and more impressive version of Joe Colborne. He should sign a contract accordingly.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

Young top line centers are certainly a huge requirement, but just in the last few years, we've seen a decent amount of good centers get traded at a very young age.

I can't think of many PPG wingers who were traded at a young age.

Wait, my opinion that Gaudreau is more valuable than Monahan means that I'm overrating Gaudreau and underrating Monahan and the centre position in general?

If Monahan is more valuable than Gaudreau, then why would he make less money on the open market?

Wingers are less valuable than centres in general. Centres have a greater impact on the game in many areas. Centres take face-offs, most wingers don't. Centres have responsibilities down low, near the net in their own zone to cover the opponent's 3rd forward. Wingers have a much easier time covering the opposition defensemen. Playmaking centres can make average wingers great (See Lemieux-Rob Brown, see Crosby-Dupuis, etc). Goal scoring wingers often are meh without a playmaking centre to set them up.

Where have the best goal scoring wingers of the past 10-15 years led their teams? Nowhere for the most part. Where have the best 1-2 centre men duos in the league led their teams in the past 10-15 years? Stanley Cups.

As for valuation it must be understood that players who score points will get paid. But scoring the most points does not necessarily make you the most valuable or impactful player for team success.

Johnny scores the most points on the Flames but centre is the more important and impactful position. That's why this negotiation is a tough one. Johnny deserves to be paid huge for putting up huge points. But it's dangerous to pay wingers huge money as you can rarely build a cup winning team with a winger as your most important and most highly paid player.

We all love Johnny. We all know how vital he is to the team. But paying him 8+ million may impact our ability to keep Bennett, Tkachuk, etc. So for the team to have success they really need to have Johnny on as cheap a deal as possible. If you overpay on wingers you can't afford your centres and defensemen and centre/defense are more important to team success.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Wingers are less valuable than centres in general. Centres have a greater impact on the game in many areas. Centres take face-offs, most wingers don't. Centres have responsibilities down low, near the net in their own zone to cover the opponent's 3rd forward. Wingers have a much easier time covering the opposition defensemen. Playmaking centres can make average wingers great (See Lemieux-Rob Brown, see Crosby-Dupuis, etc). Goal scoring wingers often are meh without a playmaking centre to set them up.

Where have the best goal scoring wingers of the past 10-15 years led their teams? Nowhere for the most part. Where have the best 1-2 centre men duos in the league led their teams in the past 10-15 years? Stanley Cups.

As for valuation it must be understood that players who score points will get paid. But scoring the most points does not necessarily make you the most valuable or impactful player for team success.

Johnny scores the most points on the Flames but centre is the more important and impactful position. That's why this negotiation is a tough one. Johnny deserves to be paid huge for putting up huge points. But it's dangerous to pay wingers huge money as you can rarely build a cup winning team with a winger as your most important and most highly paid player.

We all love Johnny. We all know how vital he is to the team. But paying him 8+ million may impact our ability to keep Bennett, Tkachuk, etc. So for the team to have success they really need to have Johnny on as cheap a deal as possible. If you overpay on wingers you can't afford your centres and defensemen and centre/defense are more important to team success.

You're not wrong but being a centre and excelling as a centre are different things. I'm not convinced Monahan as of now excels as a centre. Obviously everyone here has hope that he'll excel at the position in the future, but Gaudreau excels at his position at present.


Likewise I am not convinced Tyler Seguin is more valuable than Jamie Benn - sure he puts up numbers but he does not excel at his centre responsibilities. I even think Spezza handles those better than Seguin does. Or for that matter, age aside, I never thought Steven Stamkos was more valuable than Martin St. Louis.

You don't want to build around wingers but if your best winger is better at being a winger than your best centre is at being a centre then it is what it is. You can't just inflate the centre's value for the sole reason of being a centre.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

The only thing Gaudreau will ever amount to is being a smaller, more skilled, faster and more impressive version of Joe Colborne. He should sign a contract accordingly.

He's like the city of Denver on skates.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

You're not wrong but being a centre and excelling as a centre are different things. I'm not convinced Monahan as of now excels as a centre. Obviously everyone here has hope that he'll excel at the position in the future, but Gaudreau excels at his position at present.

Likewise I am not convinced Tyler Seguin is more valuable than Jamie Benn - sure he puts up numbers but he does not excel at his centre responsibilities. I even think Spezza handles those better than Seguin does. Or for that matter, age aside, I never thought Steven Stamkos was more valuable than Martin St. Louis.

You don't want to build around wingers but if your best winger is better at being a winger than your best centre is at being a centre then it is what it is. You can't just inflate the centre's value for the sole reason of being a centre.

Agreed. And I also think Benn may be the more valuable player than Seguin. But Benn as the premiere power-forward in the NHL brings a lot of things to the table that Gaudreau does not.

IMO Gaudreau is currently more valuable to the team than Monahan but I think Monahan still has room to grow, I'm not convinced Gaudreau will get significantly better, and Monahan plays the more important position. So Monahan may edge Gaudreau out in how valuable he is to team success within a year or two.

In the end he'll get signed, hopefully to an amount that lets Treliving build the team properly. But I think long term we've got a great set up with a young core. We're deep at centre with Monahan, Bennett, Backlund and Jankowski. We have two extremely skilled wingers in Gaudreau and Tkachuk. And we have a very good defense with Gio, Brodie, Hamilton and whoever of Jokipakka, Wotherspoon, Kulak, Andersson, Kylington, Hickey end up joining them long term.

The future is bright. But I think Gaudreau needs to be signed for 7.5 million or less in order to keep everyone.

[jemjey]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

McDavid
Eichel
Matthews
Barkov
Kuznetsov
Seguin
Johansen
Mackinnon
Draisaitl
Monahan
Galchenyuk
Scheifele
Reinhart
Zibanejad
Larkin
RNH
Rask

+ D Strome, Bennett, Nylander etc as guys coming up.

Just because these centers exist doesn't mean Monahan is easily replaced. Do you think Edmonton or Arizona would trade Matthews or Mcdavid for Johnny thinking they'd be easily replaced? I doubt we could acquire any of these players without overpaying a lot. Teams value young talented centers, and for good reason.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Teams pay for points Alex Tanguay always made more than Robyn Regehr too.

There is also no evidence Gaudreau would make more than Monahan on the open market. Teams would be salivating for either.

Why is it that teams pay more for players who score more? Seems rather arbitrary to not pay the most valuable players as much . . .

Seems like a premium is put on points because its very hard to score in the NHL, and scoring wins you hockey games.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Wingers are less valuable than centres in general. Centres have a greater impact on the game in many areas. Centres take face-offs, most wingers don't. Centres have responsibilities down low, near the net in their own zone to cover the opponent's 3rd forward. Wingers have a much easier time covering the opposition defensemen. Playmaking centres can make average wingers great (See Lemieux-Rob Brown, see Crosby-Dupuis, etc). Goal scoring wingers often are meh without a playmaking centre to set them up.

Where have the best goal scoring wingers of the past 10-15 years led their teams? Nowhere for the most part. Where have the best 1-2 centre men duos in the league led their teams in the past 10-15 years? Stanley Cups.

As for valuation it must be understood that players who score points will get paid. But scoring the most points does not necessarily make you the most valuable or impactful player for team success.

Johnny scores the most points on the Flames but centre is the more important and impactful position. That's why this negotiation is a tough one. Johnny deserves to be paid huge for putting up huge points. But it's dangerous to pay wingers huge money as you can rarely build a cup winning team with a winger as your most important and most highly paid player.

We all love Johnny. We all know how vital he is to the team. But paying him 8+ million may impact our ability to keep Bennett, Tkachuk, etc. So for the team to have success they really need to have Johnny on as cheap a deal as possible. If you overpay on wingers you can't afford your centres and defensemen and centre/defense are more important to team success.

Again, why do you think it is that teams pay more for players who score more points?

Also, Chicago has done pretty well with Patrick Kane, no?

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by jemjey

Just because these centers exist doesn't mean Monahan is easily replaced. Do you think Edmonton or Arizona would trade Matthews or Mcdavid for Johnny thinking they'd be easily replaced? I doubt we could acquire any of these players without overpaying a lot. Teams value young talented centers, and for good reason.

Well, kind of, because there are more players available who could potentially replace him than there are guys who could replace Gaudreau.