Military Coup ongoing in Turkey

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by blankall

I'd really like to think that's not possible. Turkey is still a fully functioning modern state. If it does go down that road it'd be the previously most secular/modern state to do so.

That is past tense now. He just purged every institution that makes Turkey a functioning and modern state. Ten or twenty years from now what are a generation of fully indoctrinated Turks, who are angry that they have little or no economic opportunities and have lived in a system run by Erdogan's Islamist buddies, going to be like?

[nik-]

Obviously we should have gone in there and overthrown him.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Did the Americans conduct a poll or an election in Egypt before the helped overthrow Morsi?

Different countries are different.

[FlameOn]

Erdogan is set to declare a state of emergency and martial law in the next twenty four hours. What are the changes he is going to relinquish those powers once he gets them?

[Flash Walken]

Turkey is a failed state in a similar vein to that of pakistan.

If you've read "Descent into Chaos" the parallels are as striking as they are depressing.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's just what the world needed. Another one of those.

And right on Europe's doorstep no less.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by nik-

Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

The West doesn't even want him in power but is calling for respect of democracy, not supporting Ergodan.

Stop going to infowars

Maybe you should actually read instead of just watching the headlines on TV.

"Calling for respect of democracy" doesn't actually mean anything, it's just pretty words.

The stuff that means something is the part where they are making huge political deals with him and the part where they keep giving him money.

[FlameOn]

Purge authorities to corrupt, Purge educators to indoctrinate.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

And right on Europe's doorstep no less.

Maybe they could build some sort of wall.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Itse

Maybe you should actually read instead of just watching the headlines on TV.

"Calling for respect of democracy" doesn't actually mean anything, it's just pretty words.

The stuff that means something is the part where they are making huge political deals with him and the part where they keep giving him money.

Read between the lines. They're not mentioning his name, they're giving a generic nod to democratically elected governments which happened to put into a power a leader they don't support. Your opinions in this thread are hilariously simplistic.

What would you have the West do?

Give some ideas. Put something concrete forward that you think should be done to a NATO ally who has US nukes in its bases.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by nik-

Read between the lines. They're not mentioning his name, they're giving a generic nod to democratically elected governments which happened to put into a power a leader they don't support. Your opinions in this thread are hilariously simplistic.

What would you have the West do?

Give some ideas. Put something concrete forward that you think should be done to a NATO ally who has US nukes in its bases.

I'd argue that winning popular vote is not enough to make you democratically elected. A democracy relies on basic freedoms and rights. If the people have voted to end those rights, then it's an example of totalitarian mob rule, not democracy.

[nik-]

I'm not defending Ergodan, and I'd bet a lot that all the Western secular leaders want him out of there. The situation is complex, and posting black and white opinions on money going there and what our leaders do or don't say in the media about their democracy is silly.

It's not a black and white situation and pretending that it is is ridiculous. It's all fine for someone on a forum to say "durrr, they're supporting him!!!" but what are they supposed to do? It's probably the same people that would be crying up a storm if they intervened in their country's affairs.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What could the West do? Erdogan was popularly elected, then dismantled the institutions of democracy with the support of most Turks. Secular, pro-Western Turks are a minority. People need to understand that what we consider essential pillars of democracy are not embraced by most people in the world. A free press is seen as backbiting and toxic. Judges who don't hew to traditional religious mores are regarded as leading society into depravity. Some Turks are deeply dismayed at what Erdogan is doing. More are cheering him on.

Turkey has rejected the West and Western institution. It sucks. Turkey was once the great hope for a secular and pro-Western democracy in the Muslim world. But it's better to let the popular will play out than try to install or prop-up a pro-Western regime against the wishes of the people. That hasn't exactly worked out well in places like Iran and Egypt.

You clearly know very little about modern Turkey or it's history.

Turkey was founded as a secular parliamentary republic by it's national hero and icon Mustafa Ataturk Kemal, which is an important thing to understand about Turkey. Kemal is pretty much all the Founding Fathers of USA, rolled into one person. To many in Turkey Kemals, ideas of secularity and democracy are an inseparable part of the countrys identity much the same way as many in the USA see their constitution. For you to go and say that Turkey has not "embraced" those ideas would be very offensive to many Turks, even those who have voted for Erdogan.

For some more recent history, Erdogan did try to expand his presidential powers through democratic means and he lost that election, despite some pretty clearly dirty tricks. He has tried to purge the judicial system from secular judges, with little success. He has tried to change the school system before, with only moderate success.

In short, the Turkish society has time and again refuted Erdogans attempts to change the country into a less democratic one. Erdogan is popular, but he is not more popular than democracy or secularity, and there's elections to prove it.

He has also not ruled by democratic means in a couple of years now, as the president of Turkey is actually a ceremonial role. He wanted to get himself voted into dictatorship but failed, so now he's doing it at gunpoint.

That has nothing to do with "the Turkish society rejecting democracy and free press" and all that nonsense.

[nik-]

What would you have the West do?

[Locke]

Turkey Unite!

[Itse]

Originally Posted by nik-

It's not a black and white situation and pretending that it is is ridiculous. It's all fine for someone on a forum to say "durrr, they're supporting him!!!" but what are they supposed to do?

There's a pretty long list of political and financial weaponry the West can aim at other countries when it suits their needs. In most times just holding up trade negotiations of a key industry can get countries to buckle quickly, as those kinds of problems turn into internal ones rapidly. Even quite innocent looking measures like complicating border crossings have proved to be quite effective, especially if it's directed at businessmen and politicans. Just holding up a few trucks of a well chosen company can eat the support of a leading politician, especially if election time is close. Threatening to cut financial aid is also generally quite effective. (George Bush actually got Israel to play ball with this for a while. It's one of the better achievements of his presidency.) Science exchange, student exchange... There's just so much other countries want from Europe.

If a country receives financial aid like Turkey does, cutting down on that aid is generally a pretty good stick to hold over someones head.

I could go on, the bag of tricks is really quite big. It's really pretty basic stuff if you know international diplomacy.

Most of that stuff however requires a working political system and a free press. Which is why the West should have acted while those were in place.

It's probably the same people that would be crying up a storm if they intervened in their country's affairs.

Nonsense.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by nik-

What would you have the West do?

Stop funneling arms and currency to dictators/tyrants who are the momentary lesser of two evils.

[CroFlames]

In a way, it's impressive what Erdogan has done to consolidate his power.

[nik-]

So you want them to play chicken with a NATO ally crucial in Black Sea access, with nuclear weapons on their soil and the cap for the champagne bottle that is the refugee crisis?

Sweet. Thank #### you're not employed in a foreign affairs department.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Stop funneling arms and currency to dictators/tyrants who are the momentary lesser of two evils.

It's sort of unfortunately how this crap works. Would it be awesome if it would end? Obviously. But it won't.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by nik-

What would you have the West do?

Spoiler!

[blankall]

A major issue is that Turkey was also a counterbalance to Russian power in the region. Erdogan is playing that card beautifully.

It seems now that Erdogan and Russia are now conspiring in a Nazi/Soviet Poland division kind of way.