What happens when we die?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Do other animals like orangutans have souls, or just humans?

Go ask an orangutan. The thing is as far as this whole subject, god, heaven, the afterlife is concerned, can only be answered by personal experience. I can't honestly say that you have a soul but by my own experience and listening to others, I'd say you probably have a soul. Some are more removed from experiencing it than others though I'm not saying that is your condition. I'd say that just participating in this thread shows some thought about our condition, which is good.

[Laughman]

“If there is a God, He will have to beg my forgiveness.” — A phrase that was carved on the walls of a concentration camp cell during WWII by a Jewish prisoner.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Do other animals like orangutans have souls, or just humans?

Lets try this:

All mammals would look the same to an Alien who didn't share the same double helix DNA, 2 eyes over top of a nose and mouth, four limbs, a penis or vagina for reproduction, with age the hair/fur goes grey, the body gets weak and then dies.

In other words, other than brain size we really aren't much different to an orangutan and likely there is no "religious" type soul.

If you think your special in the animal kingdom and have have a special "soul" for the afterlife I won't try to change your mind other than these comments.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by T@T

Lets try this:

All mammals would look the same to an Alien who didn't share the same double helix DNA, 2 eyes over top of a nose and mouth, four limbs, a penis or vagina for reproduction, with age the hair/fur goes grey, the body gets weak and then dies.

In other words, other than brain size we really aren't much different to an orangutan and likely there is no "religious" type soul.

If you think your special in the animal kingdom and have have a special "soul" for the afterlife I won't try to change your mind other than these comments.

This is a massive, massive, massive difference. Irreconcilable.

[Fuzz]

So when we evolved from apes, at what point did we have a big enough brain to have a soul? Where is the demarcation point?

[peter12]

No, no. This quote was carved into your Facebook wall. There is no proof that this quote ever existed, and a devout Jew would never explicitly use the name of G-D in such a manner.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by peter12

No, no. This quote was carved into your Facebook wall. There is no proof that this quote ever existed, and a devout Jew would never explicitly use the name of G-D in such a manner.

A) I'm not sure there is anything religiously wrong with the way that quote refers to God.

B) Maybe after a certain amount of time in a concentration camp, their faith in and respect for God was being shaken? Which is kind of the whole point of the quote.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MattyC

A) I'm not sure there is anything religiously wrong with the way that quote refers to God.

B) Maybe after a certain amount of time in a concentration camp, their faith in and respect for God was being shaken? Which is kind of the whole point of the quote.

Jews can't say or pronounce the name of God. Anyway, I just googled the quote, and found that it is most likely an Internet myth.

Not to say that many, many Jews didn't have their faith fundamentally shaken by the Holocaust. Zionism is more or less an extremely pragmatic revisionism of Judaism that emphasizes action over faith.

[Coach]

What do you mean they can't say or pronounce? Like, in their faith they're not allowed, or physically can't?

Because (and I'm not arguing the validity of the quote, just the message behind it) if that was written during a shake in faith, the whole "they're not allowed' thing kind of goes out the window. At that point the faith would have lapsed and therefore, the writer wouldn't have the same view of God.

[jeffporfirio]

Originally Posted by MattyC

What do you mean they can't say or pronounce? Like, in their faith they're not allowed, or physically can't?

Because (and I'm not arguing the validity of the quote, just the message behind it) if that was written during a shake in faith, the whole "they're not allowed' thing kind of goes out the window. At that point the faith would have lapsed and therefore, the writer wouldn't have the same view of God.

No devout jew can mention the name of God, it comes from the Mosaic law. That is the reason why when Jesus said "I Am" , it caused a huge uproar in his time. He was not only saying the name of God, but he was claiming to be him.

Whoever wrote that must have not been a jew, could have been a gypsy, a catholic or a person of some other group or denomination.

The smartest jewish minds that experienced the concentration camps did not have their faith shaken, in fact quite the opposite (ie Elie Wiesel).

[Coach]

Were all the Jewish people in concentration camps devout? I just find it really hard to believe that out of all the people that went through those horrors, that none of them ever had their faith shaken enough to take the lords name in vain. Come on.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by jeffporfirio

No devout jew can mention the name of God, it comes from the Mosaic law. That is the reason why when Jesus said "I Am" , it caused a huge uproar in his time. He was not only saying the name of God, but he was claiming to be him.

Whoever wrote that must have not been a jew, could have been a gypsy, a catholic or a person of some other group or denomination.

The smartest jewish minds that experienced the concentration camps did not have their faith shaken, in fact quite the opposite (ie Elie Wiesel).

Wait, so you are saying of the millions put in concentration camps, you don't leave room for maybe one of them having their faith shaken enough to write that? I mean, I'm not arguing it is true or not but I wouldn't just write off a smart Jewish person to never be able to come to that after the tortures brought upon him. That just seams an odd position.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Sliver

So neither orangutans nor humans have a soul? I thought you were saying humans did earlier, but I may have misunderstood.

Just for the record I fully believe in the soul and life beyond this one. Whether animals have a soul or not is a moot point. Even if they do you wouldn't believe it anyway. My belief is that there's so much more to life than we know or could ever understand. For me to believe that this is it, would be like having tunnel vision.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Just for the record I fully believe in the soul and life beyond this one. Whether animals have a soul or not is a moot point. Even if they do you wouldn't believe it anyway. My belief is that there's so much more to life than we know or could ever understand. For me to believe that this is it, would be like having tunnel vision.

It's not a moot point just because you say it's a moot point lol. It's actually really relevant.

Do you believe in the theory of evolution, or did god drop us off here in his image?

[Coach]

Wouldn't you have to agree on the definition of a "soul" first? What does it mean to have a soul? Self-awareness? Emotion? Empathy? Ability to communicate with your own, and potentially other, species?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by jeffporfirio

No devout jew can mention the name of God, it comes from the Mosaic law. That is the reason why when Jesus said "I Am" , it caused a huge uproar in his time. He was not only saying the name of God, but he was claiming to be him.

Whoever wrote that must have not been a jew, could have been a gypsy, a catholic or a person of some other group or denomination.

The smartest jewish minds that experienced the concentration camps did not have their faith shaken, in fact quite the opposite (ie Elie Wiesel).

Are you joking around? Of course it challenged their faith. Haha, I mean, just Google it. I've been to Aushwitz, by the way. I would call into question anybody's sanity that wouldn't have their faith questioned in a place like that.

[jeffporfirio]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Wait, so you are saying of the millions put in concentration camps, you don't leave room for maybe one of them having their faith shaken enough to write that? I mean, I'm not arguing it is true or not but I wouldn't just write off a smart Jewish person to never be able to come to that after the tortures brought upon him. That just seams an odd position.

Didn't say that. My point was that, the known smart minds that experienced the concentration camps didn't have their faith shaken by it, in fact from their writings, it seems quite the opposite.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Wouldn't you have to agree on the definition of a "soul" first? What does it mean to have a soul? Self-awareness? Emotion? Empathy? Ability to communicate with your own, and potentially other, species?

I think soul in the most basic terms would be the consciousness that magically doesn't have a physical form yet somehow contains all of the feelings, emotions, memories that, in reality, require a physical body to experience.

[jeffporfirio]

BTW. Just wanted to mention how much I've enjoyed the conversation in this thread, and true to CP most have been carried respectfully.

[jeffporfirio]

Originally Posted by jeffporfirio

Didn't say that. My point was that, the known smart minds that experienced the concentration camps didn't have their faith shaken by it, in fact from their writings, it seems quite the opposite.

Also, faith in humanity and your fellow human beings, yes shaken, in fact destroyed. Faith in God, shaken, unlikely.