The Stephan trial and evidence-based healthcare

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by AcGold

So logically this is how I figure it; allow parents to have right to decide their childrens treatment up to a point. If the child is near terminally ill the government should be able to step in with the childs consent, if the child is physically unable to consent then the government can step in as well.

Can't step in if the parents and the child deny help. That way people maintain their freedom and we can learn from mistakes and the most stubborn of the masses will be lessons. So pneumonia isn't cured with herbs and smoothies, I figured, but good to know. If I have a kid I'll be sure to take them to a hospital. I don't see the need to remove all personal freedoms, maybe make it mandatory to report serious injuries or something. I don't know it just seems to be an over reaction the other way so often.

That's exactly how it is now essentially. However, there a massive hole in that proposal. How does a 3 year old consent?

[corporatejay]

Great idea. I don't let my children decide what to have for dinner but we should let them determine what their best course of medical treatment is.

That's so stupid, I don't have any can'ts to even.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by troutman

http://skepdic.com/vitacon.html

update: January 21, 2016. The supplement industry is largely self-regulated and many of its products don't contain the ingredients that their labels say they do. This may explain why the best scientific studies of supplements have found no health benefits and some harm from the daily use of supplements.

Several large studies have shown the futility of taking vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis as a hedge against some unspecified adverse health effects. Many people, however, consider daily supplements to be part of a healthy lifestyle. Some people may be overdoing it on some of the supplements, doing themselves harm instead of good.

Should everybody avoid supplements of any kind, then? Of course not. Some people have vitamin or mineral deficiencies and supplementation is necessary for them to maintain good health.

Below you will find links to articles about persons or practices relating to vitamins, minerals, or herbs. You'll also find excerpts from various items on these topics that I've blogged about. As a bonus, I mention people who make a living selling supplements at inflated prices and encouraging others to do the same with the promise that by doing so you will be on your way to riches beyond your imagination, eternal youth, increased spirituality, or something of the sort.

There are too many companies and products involved in this kind of chicanery to list them all by name. The following links should help you decide whether a particular outfit or product is trustworthy.

Here's a great example of the "chicanery" put into practice with the current NPN nonsense.

A supplement called Forta suddenly was flying off my shelves and was also being stolen. It's an "all natural" erectile dysfunction supplement and when asked my customers raved that it was like Viagra but safer because it was natural.

Well fast forward a bit and oops! Turns out somehow Tadalafil was found in the drug and the manufacturer insists they had no idea. Must be accidental contamination ( http://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall...57002a-eng.php ).

It gets worse. They had the same accidental contamination in 2014 with Homosildenafil (a chemically altered version of Viagra).

Now health Canada is working with Forta to recall it. Nothing more. Gonna be available again soon. Great

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/medef...-eng.php#forta

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

That's exactly how it is now essentially. However, there a massive hole in that proposal. How does a 3 year old consent?

I wouldn't say hole, that's rhetorical in effect. How does a 3 year old consent? I am unsure, however, that unsurety does not necessitate the absolute removal of a parents rights over their children. That's the point, I see the hyper emotional reactionary stance and feel compelled to play devils advocate.

That being said I do have some questions about the case. Why was there no one to step in at the later stages? That's what I don't get, surely someone would step in with reason and forceably remove the child when it's obvious his life was at risk. That part baffles me, was there no community wisdom to see the child was in real danger? The natural medicine culture/community they were in should have had the common sense to step in before it was too late.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by AcGold

I wouldn't say hole, that's rhetorical in effect. How does a 3 year old consent? I am unsure, however, that unsurety does not necessitate the absolute removal of a parents rights over their children. That's the point, I see the hyper emotional reactionary stance and feel compelled to play devils advocate.

That being said I do have some questions about the case. Why was there no one to step in at the later stages? That's what I don't get, surely someone would step in with reason and forceably remove the child when it's obvious his life was at risk. That part baffles me, was there no community wisdom to see the child was in real danger? The natural medicine culture/community they were in should have had the common sense to step in before it was too late.

Not sure I would rely on their "common sense" in that scenario. The parents were part of that community. That community could easily be blinded by group think and double down on the "treatment" of herbs or fancy water or whatever. I think it would actually be very difficult for that community to suggest early that the medical community can't be trusted/natural is the best solution and then do an about-face when things become dire, to then suggest actual, medical treatment.

Even in the aftermath of this senseless death, the facebook page of the parents/natural "medicine" practitioners were willing to blame anyone other than themselves. It is shameless.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Here's a great example of the "chicanery" put into practice with the current NPN nonsense.

A supplement called Forta suddenly was flying off my shelves and was also being stolen. It's an "all natural" erectile dysfunction supplement and when asked my customers raved that it was like Viagra but safer because it was natural.

Well fast forward a bit and oops! Turns out somehow Tadalafil was found in the drug and the manufacturer insists they had no idea. Must be accidental contamination ( http://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall...57002a-eng.php ).

It gets worse. They had the same accidental contamination in 2014 with Homosildenafil (a chemically altered version of Viagra).

Now health Canada is working with Forta to recall it. Nothing more. Gonna be available again soon. Great

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/medef...-eng.php#forta

I am absolutely riveted by your pharmaceutical posts. No sarcasm, very informative.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I am absolutely riveted by your pharmaceutical posts. No sarcasm, very informative.

The part that makes me absolutely flabbergasted is we have a company actively putting potentially dangerous drugs in their products and Health Canada does nothing but ask them to remove it.

And as such, people keep trusting this absolutely horrible industry

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Here's a great example of the "chicanery" put into practice with the current NPN nonsense.

A supplement called Forta suddenly was flying off my shelves and was also being stolen. It's an "all natural" erectile dysfunction supplement and when asked my customers raved that it was like Viagra but safer because it was natural.

First you are correct that these "all natural" remedies have a pretty shocking number of recalls because they magically contain a drug in them that wasn't listed, or missed etc. And yes it concerns me that it gets removed from the shelves, empty promises get made and low and behold it shows up again. At some point the means have to be either put in place or used to bring these companies down.

Also, I don't get the "all natural" thing sometimes as if it makes it safe. Nature is scary people. Like most things out there can hurt us, kill us or make us sick if we ingest it or surprise it or whatever.

[CaptainCrunch]

How many athletes have failed drug tests because they use these supplements and nobody except the manufacturer knows whats in them.

There have been stories of supplements with steroids in them that aren't listed on the label, or miracle weight loss pills that have stimulants in them.

I'm not a big government guy, but frankly this is an industry that's screaming for regulation and testing and warning labels and the people selling them needing to be heavily certified.

If you take something and it doesn't work or its basically a bunch of non interactive crap ground up into pill form then fine, buyer beware.

But when some of these things can legitimately hurt people that's another thing.

[BigNumbers]

This 3 year old example is ridiculous - CorporateJay hit the nail on the head.

There is already law and medial regs dealing with this issue:

Age of consent — The legal age of majority has become largely irrelevant in determining when a young person may consent to his or her medical treatment. The concept of maturity has replaced chronological age, except in Québec, where the age of consent is 14 years and older.

I have not seen this apply to anyone under 12, and the old 14-16 chronological threshold is still a bright line test that many courts look to in these cases.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Meet the scientist debunking every dumb food myth on the internet



http://www.chatelaine.com/health/sci...wn-food-myths/

[Thor]

Yvette is awesome, we've spoken a number of times about skeptical issues with health and diet, she has lost a lot of weight in previous years.

Too bad shes an insufferable Hillary fan

[foshizzle11]

Here is an up date on this story. From an article on CBC:

"Ultimately it comes down to whether we have the right to vaccinate or not vaccinate without being held criminally liable, or whether or not we have to rush our children to the doctor every time they get even just the sniffles, in fear that something may just randomly happen and then we're held criminally liable (David Stephen)."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...view-1.3647102

Wasn't their son stiff as a board for multiple days before they sought medical attention? No wait, stiff as a board and stopped breathing. We aren't talking about the sniffles or the flu here.

and this quote too, mind boggling.

"He (Ezekiel) wasn't severely ill, and then everything just came to a crash on an evening, and he ended up in an ambulance that didn't have the right equipment and subsequently he ended up brain dead," he said. (David Stephen)

So he is blaming EMS for not being properly equipped to deal with his son when they arrived? Wow. 10 minutes of CPR by his wife before they arrived and this is EMS's fault?

They are asking for people to show up in support of these two at the court house during the sentencing hearing this week. Should be interesting to see what kind of support they get on this.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by foshizzle11

Here is an up date on this story. From an article on CBC:



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...view-1.3647102

Wasn't their son stiff as a board for multiple days before they sought medical attention? No wait, stiff as a board and stopped breathing. We aren't talking about the sniffles or the flu here.

and this quote too, mind boggling.


So he is blaming EMS for not being properly equipped to deal with his son when they arrived? Wow. 10 minutes of CPR by his wife before they arrived and this is EMS's fault?

They are asking for people to show up in support of these two at the court house during the sentencing hearing this week. Should be interesting to see what kind of support they get on this.

And they do realize that their charge had literally nothing at all to do with their decision to vaccinate or not

[foshizzle11]

Yup.

[rubecube]

"Ultimately it comes down to whether we have the right to vaccinate or not vaccinate without being held criminally liable, or whether or not we have to rush our children to the doctor every time they get even just the sniffles, in fear that something may just randomly happen and then we're held criminally liable (David Stephen)."

"You know ultimately it comes down to whether I have the right to feed my child or starve it without being held criminally liable."

####ing clowns.

[tete]

I don't get why the media has been giving this family airtime. They don't seem to get it - it's not about not vaccinating - it's the fact that their 19 month old child had NEVER seen a doctor. Never. Even the birth, it was a "freebirth" with no licenced doctor or midwife attending (though their birth attendant apparently was a nurse, but still). I suspect if they had taken their child to the doctor at least for a few well child visits, the verdict would have been different, but the blatant thumbing of their noses at the medical system played a lot into the verdict.

[habernac]

Judge taking zero today

Valerie Fortney ‏@ValFortney 2m2 minutes ago
"Part of the community doesn't accept the verdict, is that what you're saying?" judge asks defence lawyer in testy exchange.

Valerie Fortney ‏@ValFortney 3m3 minutes ago
"How can the support of someone not at the trial, who doesn't know the Stephans... mean anything?" judge asks the defence lawyer.

Valerie Fortney ‏@ValFortney 3m3 minutes ago
"It's the public trying to tell me what my job is," says the judge. Defence says he's never had support letters not entered at a sentencing.

Valerie Fortney ‏@ValFortney 4m4 minutes ago
Defence says he has 500 letters; judge asks if he should solicit 500 letters from people who agree with the conviction.

[burn_this_city]

I'll gladly write a letter to ensure they get the maximum.

[burn_this_city]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...itis-1.3648846

Nutjob mother took the stand today and claimed the autopsy was falsified.