About 50 people killed at gay nightclub in Florida

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It's also worth pointing out that Julius Caesar fiercely denied allegations of same-sex affairs made against him, in particular that he had 'played the woman' to the eastern king Mithridates. That wouldn't have been necessary, and his enemies wouldn't have promoted the rumours in the first place, if there wasn't politically-damaging shame attached to it. The Romans regarded boy love as a foreign Greek habit, more proof that they weren't cool with hit.

So no, public sanctions against homosexuality aren't a recent or a peculiarly Christian practice.

Do you think that the Romans took that stance because the Greeks were rivals, and it was seen as a way to diminish them?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by nik-

What is their social obligation?

To each other, and their communities. This played out courageously during the AIDS crisis. Truly not only one of the gay community's finest hours, but also an exemplar of what virtue can look like in a modern democracy.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by peter12

Oh get over using the b-word, and get off your high horse.

You can't really say get off your high horse while you're demeaning people's lifestyles as being contrary to social obligation.

I mean I know you're in full troll mode lately, but come on now.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

There are 300 million Americans, and a tiny number think it's okay to murder gay people (though I guess they at least realized they needed a legal way to do it first). There are a billion Muslims, and a tiny number think it's okay to murder gay people.

Um... no. This is fantasy. There are ten countries on this planet that impose the death penalty for homosexuality, and nine of them do so on the basis of Islam as the state religion. Moreover, the number of Muslims in Muslim majority countries who favour making Sharia the law of the land is in the hundreds of millions - it's 84% in Pakistan, 91% in Iraq, 74% in Egypt, 89% in the Palestinian territories and so on. This belief entails killing homosexuals - either by stoning them to death in accordance Sura 7:80 and proceeding and certain hadiths (see #4448), or thrown from somewhere high in replication of the punishment meted out by Ali, one of the first caliphs after Muhammad (the latter being ISIS's preferred method).

The tiny number of evangelical Christians who really, really hate gay people manifest themselves pretty much in the form of the Westboro Baptist Church. They're horrible, but aren't actually killing anyone for being gay. It almost never happens. In the Muslim world, it happens all the time, and is often done by the state.

The real-world problem of hatred of gays, at this particular point in history, is much greater among adherents to Islam than any other religion. And that's true at every level of bigoted opinion, from "I don't think you should die, but I think who you are is vile and disgusting", to "I don't think you should die, but I do think who you are should be made illegal", to "I think you should die".

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Do you think that the Romans took that stance because the Greeks were rivals, and it was seen as a way to diminish them?

The social structures surrounding homosexuality were quite complicated in the Greek and Roman world.

Homosexual companionship between equals was quite common, and indeed, seen by many as the finest, and closest relationship that a human being could enjoy. Aristophanes' myth of the two spheres in Plato's Symposium is probably the most beautiful, and poetic depiction of the Greek view of love. They actually believed in souls, and thought there was more to human relationships than just sexuality or even freedom of choice.

Pederasty was a weird mix of pedagogy, and sexual exploitation. It was quite contentious, and stigmatized. Aristophanes and Plato both wrote about the practice quite critically, and it was a common insult to imply that political enemies were part of such a relationship.

Basically, the young boy was seen as selling out his virtue for the attainment of privilege, and the older man was seen as a pervert. Many moralists in the ancient world saw it is a brute exploitation, and detrimental to the health of the polis.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by peter12

Oh get over using the b-word, and get off your high horse.

1) you didn't answer the question

2) just because you don't like the label doesn't make it any less appropriate

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by peter12

If you go back, and read what people like Larry Kramer were saying in the 1980s, you will see that this isn't really true.

Yes, some author from the 80's or someone who's lived it in present day?