About 50 people killed at gay nightclub in Florida

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

^^^ ISIS are not representative of all Muslims. In fact many Muslims regard ISIS as outlaws/murderers/psychopaths etc. Muslims are overwhelmingly the victims of ISIS's violence and atrocities. They condemn and denounce ISIS constantly.

You seem intent on making no distinction between ISIS and Muslims.

Who is saying all Muslims in this thread? ISIS slaughters anyone who won't follow sharia law, until modern Muslims denounce it publicly and in huge masses it will continue (I'm talking to you Saudi Arabia)

I hate all religions equally but recent worldwide polls claim anywhere between 15-25% of Muslims believe in sharia and what ISIS is doing. We are talking 100's of millions of people that hate western culture.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This pew poll states that most dislike ISIS in Muslim countries.

"Views of ISIS overwhelmingly negative." That 15-25% believing in what ISIS is doing doesn't seem correct.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...dain-for-isis/

[Minnie]

[Acey]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

People deserve dignity and respect. Their beliefs deserve none whatsoever.

Sort of playing Devil's advocate here... If you crap all over somebody's religion and it forms the basis by which they live their life, it's pretty hard to claim you aren't disrespecting said person. It seems too hypothetical to tell somebody their Holy text is a fantasy novel and that their church deserves zero respect, but then claim "people deserve dignity and respect". Is it not possible to disagree with the notion of religion without disrespecting it?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Give me one example. When has someone committed a violent act (killed someone, attacked an abortion clinic for example) and explicitly said that they did it for religious reasons based on their Christian beliefs, and then had everyone react with protestations of, "that's not really what motivated this person"? I can't think of a single one.

Now, you can point to many crimes committed by people who happened to be Christians where their Christianity wasn't brought to the fore. But that's different. Christians (and Muslims, and Jews, etc) can commit atrocities without being motivated by their religion. But it only seems to be Muslims who can unequivocally tell everyone, "I'm doing this for religious reasons", and in many cases cite scripture supposedly justifying their actions, and yet have their religion denied as being the motivating factor.

Part of the problem here is sample size. It seems like Islamic violence is in the news every day. Whether it be ISIS doing the stuff they do or something like this guy shooting up a nightclub, it's nearly impossible to go a week without being bombarded by this stuff. And its been going on for decades(centuries), like a sad, crazy drum... we're just waiting for the next beat. Christians blowing up abortion clinics or killing in the name of Jesus is just not as common of an occurance. Personally, I hear more about priests molesting boys (and it being joked about), probably ten times more, than any one killing in the name of Jesus. That's horrible enough, but it's not in the name of Jesus, they are just sick pedophiles. My point is, why are you trying to compare the reaction of westerners to Christian killers to Muslim ones? There's a slew of reasons why they would react differently, and you are clearly a smart guy, I'm not sure why you're so focused on this.

Jihadists are more like the Crusaders, they can't be compared to the modern era and how the west views these things. Christianity (as much as I despise it too) has evolved, while Islam is is a 6th-14th century religion trying to exist in the 21st century. It's ####ed up. Trying to compare it to modern Christianity is insane. Especially through the eyes of a westerner. Of course some people think they are nothing more than depraved psychopaths, from their frame of reference it's difficult to rationalize it any other way. Most of these scared people don't even realize that both religions worship the same god. Good luck convincing them that they're wrong on how they try to understand the motives of a group of people they don't understand, fueled by their own bias and ignorance. Not that it is a bad thing, it just is.

PS I admire your writing ability. I write too much like I talk, and I am too old to change now. When I read your stuff, while I may disagree and become bored sometimes, I come away constantly impressed with how well you put your thoughts together. You clearly have a knack for academic writing, and you know it. Not meaning this as an insult, I'm just five ryes in and yeah...

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Acey

Sort of playing Devil's advocate here... If you crap all over somebody's religion and it forms the basis by which they live their life, it's pretty hard to claim you aren't disrespecting said person. It seems too hypothetical to tell somebody their Holy text is a fantasy novel and that their church deserves zero respect, but then claim "people deserve dignity and respect". Is it not possible to disagree with the notion of religion without disrespecting it?

I can agree with that, If (and a big if) someone has the balls and wants to argue with me about their religious god I show them just how stupid and fearful they really are. And I even warn them how disrespectful I'm going to be ahead of time.

The year is 2016, we have media, we have real science, we have the internet everywhere, humanity should have evolved past the stupid notion of a religious "GOD" long ago!

Sorry folks, I get fired up when 100's of lives are ruined by an act of stupidity.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Give me one example. When has someone committed a violent act (killed someone, attacked an abortion clinic for example) and explicitly said that they did it for religious reasons based on their Christian beliefs, and then had everyone react with protestations of, "that's not really what motivated this person"? I can't think of a single one.

Now, you can point to many crimes committed by people who happened to be Christians where their Christianity wasn't brought to the fore. But that's different. Christians (and Muslims, and Jews, etc) can commit atrocities without being motivated by their religion. But it only seems to be Muslims who can unequivocally tell everyone, "I'm doing this for religious reasons", and in many cases cite scripture supposedly justifying their actions, and yet have their religion denied as being the motivating factor.

Firstly, where is "everyone" that is protesting any connection to his Islamic beliefs here? Are you the lone solider fighting to make it known?

Robert Lewis Dear, and basically every other violent anti-abortionist. Are they talked about as Christian terrorists by mainstream media sources? Not in nearly the same way.

It's never, "they're a Christian!" it's "they're not really a Christian, they're just crazy!" But I mean, how could anyone possibly be both right? Kill someone in the name of Christianity, you're crazy, or just anti-abortion, or just homophobic. Kill someone in the name of Islam, you're just a terrorist.

I hate to break it to you but when members of the LGBT community are attacked and killed for being LGBT, abortion clinics are bombed, etc, those acts are motivated primarily by religion. They aren't talked about as Christian acts of terrorism or violence when Christians are to blame, it's just "life." They just "happened to be Christians" as you said.

If you think Muslims somehow get a degree of preferential treatment in Western society when it comes to how their acts of violence are viewed then you are so completely off in your own semantic-laden troll world.

Please, your turn, give me any other example than this one where you feel "everyone" denied the Islamic connection despite it being explicitly said by someone who committed the violent act. Since it happens all the time. Muslims have it so easy, should be no problem finding all the times everyone gives them the benefit of the doubt. Can you think of a single one for this example?

[peter12]

If a so-called Christian had done this, I would be the first to condemn him to Hell, which is exactly what he would have deserved. The Bible, and all Christian theology, condemn the taking of innocent life. As Christ said to St. Peter, "he who lives by the sword, dies by it."

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by T@T

Who is saying all Muslims in this thread? ISIS slaughters anyone who won't follow sharia law, until modern Muslims denounce it publicly and in huge masses it will continue (I'm talking to you Saudi Arabia)

I hate all religions equally but recent worldwide polls claim anywhere between 15-25% of Muslims believe in sharia and what ISIS is doing. We are talking 100's of millions of people that hate western culture.

Islam is probably hundreds of years away from accomplishing what you want. Think about it, you are basically asking two billion people to go though through an enlightenment. You are expecting something that would be remembered as one of the most important events in human history, something that would be celebrated for centuries. They would probably start worshiping and/or following those new ideals... you're essentially asking for a reformation that would cause the deaths of millions of people so that you can feel better about why and how these things happen... or something, maybe fill me in?

Maybe step back a bit and realize that a large (would be nice if it was larger but what do you do?) % of Muslims are horrified by terrorist acts. They are regular people like you and me. Asking that regular Muslims stand up to jihadists so you'll stop vilifying everybody is a weird and impossible proposition to make.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Islam is probably hundreds of years away from accomplishing what you want. Think about it, you are basically asking two billion people to go though through an enlightenment.

No I'm not, I'm asking the majority to stand up and fight for themselves and their peaceful side of islam.

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

You are expecting something that would be remembered as one of the most important events in human history, something that would be celebrated for centuries.

Is that not a good thing?

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

They would probably start worshiping and/or following those new ideals... you're essentially asking for a reformation that would cause the deaths of millions of people so that you can feel better about why and how these things happen... or something, maybe fill me in?

What reformation? everyone claims most Muslims are peaceful, just spread the news and millions shouldn't die.

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Maybe step back a bit and realize that a large (would be nice if it was larger but what do you do?) % of Muslims are horrified by terrorist acts. They are regular people like you and me. Asking that regular Muslims stand up to jihadists so you'll stop vilifying everybody is a weird and impossible proposition to make.

My point exactly. Muslims are horrified but they still sit on their hands and basically say nothing. you know why? because they can't even get along with each other, In the middle east Shia's and Sunni's want each other dead because of retarrded ideology, if they pick a side in the west they'll start dying here too.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by T@T

Who is saying all Muslims in this thread? ISIS slaughters anyone who won't follow sharia law, until modern Muslims denounce it publicly and in huge masses it will continue (I'm talking to you Saudi Arabia)

I hate all religions equally but recent worldwide polls claim anywhere between 15-25% of Muslims believe in sharia and what ISIS is doing. We are talking 100's of millions of people that hate western culture.

Damn T@T so you're telling me if Saudi Arabia came out tomorrow and denounced ISIS that they'd just put their guns and bombs down? Do you actually believe the drivel you type?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

^Won't let me quote the whole T@T post for some reason:

By asking for them to fight, you are asking for them to die. If it was you, what would you do? Live your life or stand up to them and die? It's not such a easy thing, put yourself in their shoes. They would basically be sentencing themselves and their families to death.

A reformation would be a good thing... obviously. But that wasn't my point. You might as wish for a cure to cancer. Sure, it might happen, eventually, and it would be GREAT but lets get realistic.

You know being peaceful and 'just spreading the news' isn't an option don't you? For regular people? People that want to LIVE.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Damn T@T so you're telling me if Saudi Arabia came out tomorrow and denounced ISIS that they'd just put their guns and bombs down? Do you actually believe the drivel you type?

Don't worry they won't, Saudi's in a way are ISIS, they were a big part of 9-11 and will be a big part in terrorism for many years to come. they are scum of the friken earth.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by T@T

Don't worry they won't, Saudi's in a way are ISIS, they were a big part of 9-11 and will be a big part in terrorism for many years to come. they are scum of the friken earth.

So what would happen if tomorrow they denounced ISIS? Nothing would happen. Isis would still be the exact same murdering terrorist scum of the earth who had more enemies they want to kill.

[Fuzz]

Fantastic article on what is being discussed here by Neil McDonald. I was going to quote sections, but all of it is on point.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/orla...631994?cmp=rss

[blender]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Fantastic article on what is being discussed here by Neil McDonald. I was going to quote sections, but all of it is on point.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/orla...631994?cmp=rss

Good article. WE create the world we live in through the actions we take every day.

[Huntingwhale]

http://www.vox.com/a/mass-shootings-calendar-june-2016

What a sad depressing stat. Of the ~164 days into 2016, 89 days have had a mass shooting, 76 without. Sad and pathetic. Pretty much every 2nd day you can count on having a mass shooting somewhere in America. Absolutely pathetic for a country that likes to pride itself on being the best country in the world and a place everyone wants to live in. Yeah f'ing right.

The 2nd amendment is one of the worst things that has ever been written and has resulted (and will result) in thousands, if not millions of deaths all over the USA throughout it's history. Congratulations ''forefathers''. The right to bear and keep arms is one of the worst ideas you have ever come up with and infact has done the complete opposite of what you intended it to do.

And now more then ever it's important for every pride parade and every gay bar to be completely packed. I never saw the point of pride parades. Not because I was against it, but because like many others I had the attitude of ''there's no straight parade so why do we need a pride parade?". I slap myself for having thought that way because now more then ever, I see exactly why it's important to have them.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

I don't know if the constitution is to blame as much as they stopped the 'well regulated militia' part slide...

I think that the core of the problem is corporate lobbying for the firearms industry. Reform lobbying and you might get common sense.

[_Q_]

The obsession in the United States with their constitution has become almost religious. As if these "forefathers" were the best of humanity and a document they wrote over 200 years ago is the most relevant way of running a country in the 21st century.

Saudi Arabia in 2016 "We'd love to do 'X' but the Quran specifically says 'Y', sorry it just can't be done"

United States in 2016 "We'd love to do 'X' but the Constitution says 'Y', sorry it can't be done"

[nik-]

Originally Posted by _Q_

The obsession in the United States with their constitution has become almost religious. As if these "forefathers" were the best of humanity and a document they wrote over 200 years ago is the most relevant way of running a country in the 21st century.

Saudi Arabia in 2016 "We'd love to do 'X' but the Quran specifically says 'Y', sorry it just can't be done"

United States in 2016 "We'd love to do 'X' but the Constitution says 'Y', sorry it can't be done"

They death grip certain parts of their constitution like they death grip certain parts of their bible.

They seemed pretty eager to let massive fourth amendment violations go unchallenged on a broad scale. Just like you don't see a lot of people getting up in arms about people eating shellfish.