"Prognosis is not really good" on NHL players going to 2018 Olympics

[polak]

Okay we appear to think I'm arguing against you. I'm not.

I'm just stating why I think the IIHF needs to do something in order to stop the NHL from not sending players to the Olympics and not just take it on the chin and I'm just stating why it's important for the game. I completely understand why the NHL is acting like it is.

It just sucks.

[Resolute 14]

The only thing the IIHF can do is make it a business decision that the NHL finds acceptable. And as the smallest player in the room, they don't have much influence in the matter. Unless the IIHF wanted to go nuclear and refuse to sanction an Olympic hockey tournament AND it convinced the other big nations to join any such boycott until the IOC gave the NHL enough to make it worthwhile. But that obviously won't happen, since the NHL not going hurts the Canadian and American teams the most, by far.

[thefoss1957]

This Fan absolutely HATES the Olympics, and everything about it...Overrun with corruption and politics...perpetual judging/officiating/drug scandals...flag waving hypocrisy...the inclusion of ridiculously non-sporting "sporting" events (i.e. anything that is judged, subjectively, by aesthetics)...to interrupt a professional league season for this garbage is intolerable.

Sadly, the money will speak, and I expect that NBC will be the gorilla in the room, bullying the NHL to relent...so they can broadcast NHL players along with the craptastic Ice-Dancing exhibitions (note, EXHIBITION, NOT a SPORT), that they flood the airwaves with...Heck, at least Barrel Jumping can objectively be measured...BTW, the Summer games are worse, in that they have occasionally included junk like SOLO synchronized swimming (WTH IS THAT?), Dressage, and other pathetic "sporting" events.

I expect, that, in the end, Bettman will cave...and another interrupted season of players playing too many non-NHL games will occur.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

It's interesting to see the opinions from fans on this. I wonder if it's an age breakdown. I'm old enough to remember the Olympics without NHL players very vividly, and I couldn't careless if they go to the Olympics or not. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy it if it happens, but as long as we have one best on best tourney every 4 years (World Cup is fine by me) I'd be happy.

In fact, I think I'd prefer a World Cup. Doesn't interrupt the NHL season, and gives me another event to look forward to as I'd still enjoy the Olympics without NHL Hockey.

I think the Olympics though is the ultimate best on best tournament. After the 2014 selections you saw guys just devastated they weren't selected (Logan Couture comes to mind). Do we really think guys were devastated they got another 3 weeks of vacation this summer by not being selected here?

I mentioned it in another thread, but the Olympics being in the middle of the season is exactly why it's such a great tournament. You get these guys in midseason form. The World Cup well...most guys are coming from partying all summer into the World Cup. I don't think it's wrong to suggest the quality level will be at least 50% poorer at the World Cup, and that's before you add in the fact guys want to win the Olympics way worse than a World Cup. So while there will be a "best on best" tournament every 4 years, it won't be the best version of said tournament that we can see, and that's too bad. I hate the IOC and find them abhorrent, but there's no denying the Olympics brings out more from guys than a late August tournament will.

[Erick Estrada]

I'm sure I'm in the minority but I actually don't care that much if there are no NHL players at the 2018 games.

[midniteowl]

I love watching the Olympic Hockey cos it's best on best, beating the best and coming up on top is an awesome and proud feeling. AND, I want Canada to win it back to back to back and be triple crowned. On the other hand, it good to see the NHL stick it to the IOC, so I'm very conflicted.

[Flamenspiel]

I think the World Cup is gimmick, its not the best teams because the Canadian and US teams are handicapped in not having their best young players. That being said, you could say its the best players because a lot of the top younger players would have been the last cuts on the "senior" teams.

So what we really have is sort of an all-star tournament rather then an all-star game. Perhaps interesting to watch, but I can't see it having the passion of the Olympic games.

[Northendzone]

I like the tournament, I also like the by product of more games packed into a short time frame - ie. 3-4 games per week.

I am sure that the players who go to the Olympics love the experience, but I will bet they are tired when they get back, especially when the tournament is overseas

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I think the World Cup is gimmick, its not the best teams because the Canadian and US teams are handicapped in not having their best young players. That being said, you could say its the best players because a lot of the top younger players would have been the last cuts on the "senior" teams.

So what we really have is sort of an all-star tournament rather then an all-star game. Perhaps interesting to watch, but I can't see it having the passion of the Olympic games.

I don't dissagree. I don't like the NA U23 team concept at all for this years WC, so if they moved forward I'd hope they change that. I also don't dissagree that for the players, the chance at Olympic gold is pretty cool and drives some motivation.

All of that said, I think most of your passion concern would go away, if the World Cup was the only Best on Best tournament that happens. Right now, with both an Olympics and World Cup (or at least the possibility of both) it's tough to view the WC as hockey's main event on the international stage, and if the NHL is going to continue in the Olympics the WC shouldn't exist in my opinion. Too much best on best saturation.

But if we got to the point where the NHL players weren't going to the Olympics, I don't think it would be long until you saw the passion for your Nation and the desire to win the WC badly bleed into the crowd and the players. The World Cup and Canada Cups prior to the NHL going to the Olympics were amazing events that had tones of pride and passion, and I think you'd see that return.

[rubecube]

The problem with the World Cup is that the stakes just aren't that high and therefore you're not going to get the same kind of emotion out of watching it as you do the Olympics. You're not going to see people pouring into the streets if Canada wins, or bars opening up at 4 AM for the final. It's a B tournament.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by rubecube

The problem with the World Cup is that the stakes just aren't that high and therefore you're not going to get the same kind of emotion out of watching it as you do the Olympics. You're not going to see people pouring into the streets if Canada wins, or bars opening up at 4 AM for the final. It's a B tournament.

That sounds like the opinion of someone who doesn't remember or wasn't around for The World Cup in 96 and any other World Cup and Canada Cup or Summit series prior to that date.

When it becomes the only best on best, the fans and the players start to really really care. National pride to say who's the best at hockey takes over. Our 87 Canada Cup victory meant every bit as much to me as any of our three gold medals did since the NHL has gone to the Olympics, and the 96 loss to the US is easily the most devastating international hockey loss I've experienced. History shows, the care will be there, no doubt.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by polak

I think almost any player that is good enough to make the top lines of these Olympic teams would be able to find work as they please. Again, it only takes 3 or 4 big names to leave en masse before it's all over ESPN that the NHL can no longer retain top talent.

If the NHL doesn't go to the Olympics, that leaves one tournament that uses NHL players? If they lose NHL'ers at the Olympics the IIHF can't lose much from shaking the tree at that point. Convince some of the bigger nations to hold the fort with the IIHF with the benefit of keeping their best players in the domestic league and you might be able to convince the NHL to change their mind. Especially if they actually hold the fort for a few years and the NHL starts losing real talent to the other leagues.

Yeah...just like when the KHL was gonna steal everyone and then it was the WHA2 and maybe the Swedish league.....yadda yadda yadda.

The vast majority of players want to play in the best league in the world and there is nothing even close to the NHL in that regards.

If 2 or 3 guys want to forsake their NHLcareer to attend a 2 week tournament in Korea that does not have all the best in the world....who cares? Certainly not the NHL.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

That sounds like the opinion of someone who doesn't remember or wasn't around for The World Cup in 96 and any other World Cup and Canada Cup or Summit series prior to that date.

When it becomes the only best on best, the fans and the players start to really really care. National pride to say who's the best at hockey takes over. Our 87 Canada Cup victory meant every bit as much to me as any of our three gold medals did since the NHL has gone to the Olympics, and the 96 loss to the US is easily the most devastating international hockey loss I've experienced. History shows, the care will be there, no doubt.

I vividly remember the '96 World Cup and how crushed I was when Canada lost but I was also 9 at the time so it could've just been the little kid in me. The '04 World Cup meant F all to me.

I also don't seem to recall there being any nationwide celebrations out in the streets following World Cup or Canada Cup wins like there were following the 2002, 2010, and 2014 gold medals.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

That sounds like the opinion of someone who doesn't remember or wasn't around for The World Cup in 96 and any other World Cup and Canada Cup or Summit series prior to that date.

When it becomes the only best on best, the fans and the players start to really really care. National pride to say who's the best at hockey takes over. Our 87 Canada Cup victory meant every bit as much to me as any of our three gold medals did since the NHL has gone to the Olympics, and the 96 loss to the US is easily the most devastating international hockey loss I've experienced. History shows, the care will be there, no doubt.

This.

87 (and even moreso 72) were the most important victories this country ever acheived in hockey.

And every single Canadian who gave even a little care was absolutely glued to their TV's for the 8 game set in 72 and that best of 3 in 87. In 87 there wasnt a seat to be had in any bars showing that last game. That team was so good that Yzerman and Roy were cut.

I mean if people dont think the Canada/World Cup matters...here is what Wayne Gretzky said about 87.

"The entire experience was really overwhelming," Wayne Gretzky told ESPN.com in an interview last week.

"The Great One" has said it many times, that it was the best hockey he was ever part of.

"No question," said Gretzky, whose 21 points (3-18) in nine games led tournament scoring. "There’s no question, at the time, they were the best team in the world. They were that good."

I agree with the notion that this years WC wont have quite the allure of those in years past because of the NA and Euro squads that represent nothing basically. It was a poor solution to minor problem IMO in that they could not get 2 teams to join the big 6 that would be able to compete. They just should have left it at 6 teams like they used to. However, that concept is a one and done IMO. they want 8 teams for the next WC as well but that will be 8 different countries ....period.

I cant wait for this thing actually and will be surprised if it is not at Olympic levels of intensity or very close.

[Resolute 14]

This new World Cup doesn't compare to the Canada Cup or even 1996 World Cup.

The CC was born at the peak of the Cold War. It was more than just a clash of nations. It was also a clash of ideology. The west, represented by Canada, against the Communist Soviet Union. Then throw in Czechoslovakia, held under the Soviet boot and which desired every little victory it could get over their oppressors. Finland and Sweden, right on top of the Soviet monster, and finally the US, which was really just there to round out the roster. Those games were as political as one could imagine.

And that, perhaps, partially explains why the Canada Cup fizzled out after the Soviet Bloc fell apart.

The 2016 World Cup is simply a more ridiculous version of the 2004 World Cup. It's there, we cheered for our team, we moved on the next day.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

This new World Cup doesn't compare to the Canada Cup or even 1996 World Cup.

The CC was born at the peak of the Cold War. It was more than just a clash of nations. It was also a clash of ideology. The west, represented by Canada, against the Communist Soviet Union. Then throw in Czechoslovakia, held under the Soviet boot and which desired every little victory it could get over their oppressors. Finland and Sweden, right on top of the Soviet monster, and finally the US, which was really just there to round out the roster. Those games were as political as one could imagine.

And that, perhaps, partially explains why the Canada Cup fizzled out after the Soviet Bloc fell apart.

The 2016 World Cup is simply a more ridiculous version of the 2004 World Cup. It's there, we cheered for our team, we moved on the next day.

Yes...that is all true and probably cant be underestimated as part of the driving force that those events were.

that being said though, the players arent going to be less amped up when it gets down to things this time just because the Berlin wall fell 25 years ago.

Once they get that jersey on...it matters. Its up to the fans to either join them or not. It will be harder this time though because of the gimmicky teams that have some of your favorite nationals on them.

I still think WC 2020 will be right back to Canada/WC levels of excitement though, particularly because it will be the only best on best available since the Oly's wont feature NHL players any longer.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I vividly remember the '96 World Cup and how crushed I was when Canada lost but I was also 9 at the time so it could've just been the little kid in me. The '04 World Cup meant F all to me.

I also don't seem to recall there being any nationwide celebrations out in the streets following World Cup or Canada Cup wins like there were following the 2002, 2010, and 2014 gold medals.

I'm 100% with you on 04, meant much less to me either, which is why I don't believe the Olympics and WC can co-exists. Olympics will always mean more if both are best on best format.

Now as for the rest of your post, you kind of explained why you might not remember any street parties back during previous Canada Cups if you were 9 in 96. To my original point you were barely old enough to have meaningful memories of the last time the WC was the only best on best hockey tourney.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yes...that is all true and probably cant be underestimated as part of the driving force that those events were.

that being said though, the players arent going to be less amped up when it gets down to things this time just because the Berlin wall fell 25 years ago.

Once they get that jersey on...it matters. Its up to the fans to either join them or not. It will be harder this time though because of the gimmicky teams that have some of your favorite nationals on them.

I still think WC 2020 will be right back to Canada/WC levels of excitement though, particularly because it will be the only best on best available since the Oly's wont feature NHL players any longer.

Certainly it matters to the players who go. The World Championships bear that out - the guys who go are excited. Most of the public, however, is indifferent. And that is what the World Cup will be. Even in 2020, if it happens again.

I think that, for the forseable future, it will be the hockey equivalent of the World Baseball Classic: a fun little pre-season event. Real passion is going to take time and will depend on the NHL committing to a proper event. And that will include tossing the U23 and Team Europe nonsense.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I'm 100% with you on 04, meant much less to me either, which is why I don't believe the Olympics and WC can co-exists. Olympics will always mean more if both are best on best format.

Now as for the rest of your post, you kind of explained why you might not remember any street parties back during previous Canada Cups if you were 9 in 96. To my original point you were barely old enough to have meaningful memories of the last time the WC was the only best on best hockey tourney.

Were there actually street parties that were comparable to 2010 though? Legitimately curious.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Were there actually street parties that were comparable to 2010 though? Legitimately curious.

There was partying in the streets, was it anything close to 2010 post Vancouver, I honestly have no idea, I was too young to partake in 87

I would say, the volume of street partying likely isn't the best barometer of how much it meant to people. Was Vancouvers party influenced by the fact that the Olympics is often full of street parties anyway, or did people street party as much in the 80's? I have no idea.