A Song of Ice and Fire **Spoilers** Now more TV talk!

[saillias]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Not really sure where they're going with Rickon's story. Kind of completely washes out a pretty big storyline from the books.

I always had a suspicion he had something like this coming. Sort of the Stark version of Quentyn Martell.

All the direwolf names have significance and Rickon's is "Shaggydog"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaggy_dog_story

George has been planning this fate for Rickon since like 1995.

[TheDragon]

N/m -

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Yamer

As for Rickon, I have a sneaking suspicion it's a play between himself and the Umbers against Ramsay. Just a feeling I got when reading that scene.

Don't know what the payoff is, but that's where I'm leaning right now.

As much as the show has distorted the story at points, I just can't see them taking away the Umbers from the "book-readers." Even the Umbers that joined the Bolton's only did so to save the Greatjon. I agree, the Umbers have something up their sleeves and I think it will mimic the Manderlys' plot in the books.

In A Feast for Crows, Davos' "head" was shown to prove loyalty the Manderlys had to the Crown and the book-readers were left in the dark. Really they saved Davos and had him search for Rickon. I think Shaggydog's head has taken the place of Davos and we'll find out it was just a big wolf.

Of course giving Rickon to Ramsay is a terrible plan considering he doesn't have much issue just killing those in his way.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

As much as the show has distorted the story at points, I just can't see them taking away the Umbers from the "book-readers." Even the Umbers that joined the Bolton's only did so to save the Greatjon. I agree, the Umbers have something up their sleeves and I think it will mimic the Manderlys' plot in the books.

In A Feast for Crows, Davos' "head" was shown to prove loyalty the Manderlys had to the Crown and the book-readers were left in the dark. Really they saved Davos and had him search for Rickon. I think Shaggydog's head has taken the place of Davos and we'll find out it was just a big wolf.

Of course giving Rickon to Ramsay is a terrible plan considering he doesn't have much issue just killing those in his way.

Yeah, I just don't know how the con plays in. Ramsay can use it as leverage to get Sansa back to Winterfell. So, unless the Umbers are planning to switch sides during what we can assume is the inevitable battle between the Boltons and the Northerners/Wildlings, I am at a loss concerning the strategy.

I'm guessing the Umbers are prodding the battle along, forcing Jon and others' hands into getting rid of the treacherous Boltons and the perceived Lannister influence in the north.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by saillias

George has been planning this fate for Rickon since like 1995.

While I agree, I'm all aboard the King of the North Rickon Stark train. The story has had about a dozen kings in the book and none got a POV, I don't think that it's a coincidence that we never got a POV of Rickon either.

King Robert Baratheon - No POV
King Viserys Targaryen - No POV
King Robb Stark - No POV
King Balon Greyjoy - No POV
King Joffrey Baratheon - No POV
King Tommen Baratheon - No POV
King Stannis Baratheon - No POV
King Renly Baratheon - No POV
King Mance Rayder - No POV
King Aegon Targaryen - No POV
King Euron Greyjoy - No POV

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Yamer

The only thing I can think is that it is meant to magnify the importance of Ned reaching Lyanna. Desperation is so high that the honourable northern houses were willing to stab the most notorious swordsman in Westeros in the back.

I think in the show it's just alluding to the fact the Eddard Stark did lie, at least at that time. He lied about Howland Reed, he's going to lie about Jon.

In the books though, that type of honour isn't really important to the Northmen certainly not the Reeds. There is few northern knights because they don't really agree with that code. The Crannogmen are perfectly happy taking out their enemies with poison darts from afar and other guerrilla tactics, so I don't think Howland would care too much if word got out that he stabbed some guy.

[GreenLantern]

I thought they handled the ToJ scene quite well, this is one scene they could have stuck closer to the book but the fight scene was just so epic. The actor playing Arthur Dayne did such a good job, it was exactly how I pictured him being. Honorable, respectful, almost methodical in his code... but with a bit of cockiness that comes with being that great. I loved Whent using the whetstone on his blade as they rode up. I get why they didn't have the White Bull, they wanted the focus to be on Dayne not the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Very happy, well done D&D and thank you. It is hard to remember when I started reading the books but I was waiting at least 15 years to see Dayne on some sort of screen.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I think in the show it's just alluding to the fact the Eddard Stark did lie, at least at that time. He lied about Howland Reed, he's going to lie about Jon.

In the books though, that type of honour isn't really important to the Northmen certainly not the Reeds. There is few northern knights because they don't really agree with that code. The Crannogmen are perfectly happy taking out their enemies with poison darts from afar and other guerrilla tactics, so I don't think Howland would care too much if word got out that he stabbed some guy.

How did he lie? Wasn't he blunt that Reed saved his life from Dayne who was about to kill him?

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

How did he lie? Wasn't he blunt that Reed saved his life from Dayne who was about to kill him?

In the books, yes. I don't recall conversations Ned had in the show that referred to this event.

Bran's dialogue seems to indicate he (Ned) may have misled people.

[Yamer]

Can someone clear this up for me?:

If Jon in fact proves to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, does he become the rightful heir to Winterfell? He would be the eldest living Stark, but not from Eddard.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Can someone clear this up for me?:

If Jon in fact proves to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, does he become the rightful heir to Winterfell? He would be the eldest living Stark, but not from Eddard.

Bran and Rickon would definitely be ahead of him. Probably Sansa and Arya would be as well, although there's some murkiness when it comes to that. Some cases might be happy with whatever closest living male heir. Some might want lordship traced back male only, so son of a son of a son..as Jon would be son of a daughter of a son he might be ineligible..but he would also be King.

Actually Jon answers himself. "A son comes before an uncle by all the laws I know...A daughter comes before an uncle too." Sansa and Arya would be ahead of him.

Of course removing the '#######' equation.

[GreenLantern]

I think that the significance of it would be that he is Prince Rhaegars child, and has a claim for the Iron Throne. Being a Stark would help him rally the people of the North behind his claim and I am sure that King Rickon or Queen Sansa would be behind him 100%.

I always thought Jon would be the one to unite the seven kingdoms for the coming battle against the white walkers and just figured his secret heritage was the key to the claim. But then that doesn't include Danny and her Dragons.. and I guess Danny would be his Auntie?

[Tinordi]

Definitely think the Rickon Stark move is a feign by the Umbers. I'm interested to see what the future holds for Rickon. Would it be logically consistent for Ramsay to kill his half-brother but not Rickon who's an ever greater threat to his throne? I hope they have a good story to explain why Ramsay may give Rickon different treatment. Maybe he'll use him as bait to bring Sansa back.

[stang]

JFC I've read the books twice and still don't know what the heck is going on!

Gonna re read again

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Definitely think the Rickon Stark move is a feign by the Umbers. I'm interested to see what the future holds for Rickon. Would it be logically consistent for Ramsay to kill his half-brother but not Rickon who's an ever greater threat to his throne? I hope they have a good story to explain why Ramsay may give Rickon different treatment. Maybe he'll use him as bait to bring Sansa back.

I honestly think the show Umbers are pissed about the wildlings and there is no feign move.

I think think the Winter Bowel will be Jon/Wildlings/other northern houses vs Umbers/Boltons/KarStarks

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

I honestly think the show Umbers are pissed about the wildlings and there is no feign move.

I think think the Winter Bowel will be Jon/Wildlings/other northern houses vs Umbers/Boltons/KarStarks

In the book the Umbers are loyal to the Starks. I have a hard time believing they'd be giving up the heir of the Stark house to face certain death so they can make a fickle alliance with Ramsay, who's demonstrated to everyone that he's a mad dog that's not to be trusted. If they played the longer game knowing by trying to reinstall a Stark back in Winterfell they would accomplish much better objectives such as positioning for the Bolton lands and unifying and fortifying the North before winter has truly come.

That and by most accounts the wildlings are being well-behaved since Jon let them through. I don't know how much raiding they would have been going on knowing the show of fealty Jon extended to them. Seems like a huge chip to play if you're the Umbers for an uncertain threat.

[Matata]

I think things are starting to unravel for Ramsay, he's lost his 3 most valuable assets in a short amount of time (Sansa, Theon and Roose) and the other ambitious houses must be smelling blood in the water. He's exhausted the limits of his cruelty and it will only work against him in the future.

[Finger Cookin]

Eww, Winter Bowel.

[saillias]

Did someone mention Edmonton?

[KTrain]

Who wants a chapter of the new book? George just posted a chapter from the next book and then told everyone he's still not done.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerp...nds-of-winter/