Ethics of eating meat

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by peter12

I have preserved pig cheeks and garlic in duck fat, and then cooked the pieces on thick toast in the oven.

Probably the best thing you can eat.

Oh man. Confit is amazing. Duck fat is a gift from the gods.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by T-Rich

I wasn't trying to argue that there would be increased biodiversity by removing current food practices, just saying if chickens, cows, and pigs didn't exist there would be less biodiversity.

Natural selection is always changing so cows and pigs may be winning right now but that would change if humans stopped eating them as much.

Extinction vs living a life of suffering is an interesting argument and I'm sure people would fall on both sides of it but I don't think it has to be one or the other. I won't argue that these animals currently rely on humans to survive and that its possible they go extinct without us raising them but they might adapt and find new ways to survive without us. If we stop eating meat and they start going extinct and people think that's an issue then maybe we do something about it but just continuing with a practice that promotes suffering of animals because they may go extinct otherwise certainly doesn't make any sense. I don't mean to imply that this is what you are arguing for, just saying we should be less concerned about an animal going extinct when it is no where near that level.

I'm not sure animals suffer in the food I eat. Probably the processed Deli meats and the bacon but I choose to pay a bit more and get local farmed meat for the most part. The ironic part of that is its probably less sustainable from a whole earth stand point. As the amount of meat we can produce is higher from the factory farmed process

I think the strongest argument against eating meet is it takes significantly more energy to feed ourselves on meat then on plants. So from a reducing out footprint on earth not eating meat is probably the best way of reducing our impact. (that or eliminating leisure travel).

[peter12]

As troutman mentioned awhile back, there is a conviviality in eating meat that cannot be enjoyed with vegetables. Besides, you don't have to eat frozen disk burgers from Safeway or 3 sirloins a week, there are so many awesome options for preparing meat, and some of them are pretty environmentally sustainable. Pork and chicken for example have a lower carbon footprint than spinach!

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Happy animals taste better. Nothing wrong with giving them a happy life and at the end of it becoming food. Really it is in our best interests to not be cruel but eating one another is just the circle of life. Until we figure out how to just absorb light rays and turn them into food.

When I graduated high school, I spent a year working on the brother in law and his fathers hog farm.

Outside of Arizona we were one of only a handful of farrowing farms that utilized group pens for gestating sows. When the vet came out to dissect an old sow to inspect our herd health, he always marvelled at how good of shape the joints were, and how happy the pigs were in general. We had sows that were on their 11, 12, 13 parity and still produced good litter numbers. As in 10 or so little piglets.

Most farms that utilized crates only had sows producing about 6 litters before the litter numbers dropped.

Now that I think of it, I miss it. It's amazing how the pink #######s develop their own social structure and pecking order. You don't see that with hogs that live in a crate. Very intelligent animals. And delicious.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Is it though?

NASA To Study Man Who Survives On Liquids And Sunlight

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/food-03d.html

Do you not have a functional BS detector?

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Do you not have a functional BS detector?

It was kind of tongue in cheek. Should have used green text I guess.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Is it though?

NASA To Study Man Who Survives On Liquids And Sunlight

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/food-03d.html

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...fantasy-versu/

http://skepdic.com/inedia.html

[northcrunk]

Although it is a new "trend" in China:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...se-weight.html

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by troutman

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...fantasy-versu/

Again. Should have used green text. There are a lot of false Gurus who take advantage of people who are easly misled such as villagers. A more recent famous one is sri sathya sai baba. There are even NGOs now who travel from village to village preforming what appear to be miracles and then show the villagers how it is done to spot fakes.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GGG

I'm not sure animals suffer in the food I eat. Probably the processed Deli meats and the bacon but I choose to pay a bit more and get local farmed meat for the most part. The ironic part of that is its probably less sustainable from a whole earth stand point. As the amount of meat we can produce is higher from the factory farmed process

I think the strongest argument against eating meet is it takes significantly more energy to feed ourselves on meat then on plants. So from a reducing out footprint on earth not eating meat is probably the best way of reducing our impact. (that or eliminating leisure travel).

Sustainable from the standpoint that we wouldn't be able to produce enough, or sustainable from an environmental standpoint? The only way the factory farm process is more efficient is in kg/$. The money is not a factor in the sustainability being discussed here. We're talking about the environmental impact and the well being of the animals we choose to consume. If you bring money in as a sustainability factor, it's going to take precedence over either of the former issues. We have to put it aside if there is to be any real conversation about ethics or environmental impacts.

Originally Posted by peter12

As troutman mentioned awhile back, there is a conviviality in eating meat that cannot be enjoyed with vegetables. Besides, you don't have to eat frozen disk burgers from Safeway or 3 sirloins a week, there are so many awesome options for preparing meat, and some of them are pretty environmentally sustainable. Pork and chicken for example have a lower carbon footprint than spinach!

Yeah but the pig's and chicken's conditions may not be very good, which is part of the issue as well.

[peter12]

Well, then don't eat it so often or focus on less popular parts of the animal - shoulders, legs, and organs are so unloved but so delicious.

Also, what about the fact that a lot of vegetables or protein subs are incredibly resource-intensive. Tofu is wretched. So is spinach.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Born-again vegans are every bit as obnoxious as born-again Christians.

and both of them combined are not as obnoxious as the proselytizing atheist.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by peter12

Well, then don't eat it so often or focus on less popular parts of the animal - shoulders, legs, and organs are so unloved but so delicious.

Also, what about the fact that a lot of vegetables or protein subs are incredibly resource-intensive. Tofu is wretched. So is spinach.

Yeah for sure. There are a lot of plants that are just as bad if not worse for environmental sustainability. But we dont have to take the plants livelyhood into account as well, which is part of the issue being discussed here.

There has to be a balance between environmental sustainability, animal conditions, and cost at consumption.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yeah for sure. There are a lot of plants that are just as bad if not worse for environmental sustainability. But we dont have to take the plants livelyhood into account as well, which is part of the issue being discussed here.

There has to be a balance between environmental sustainability, animal conditions, and cost at consumption.

Absolutely. No argument there. As I said, you don't have to gorge yourself on the white cardboard box of frozen beef discs on sale at Safeway.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The difference is that meat eaters almost never start these arguments.

They happen because someone starts proselytising about how their personal life choices are "more ethical", and which is really just code for "I'm better than you". We, for the most part, are willing to live and let live. People like Shogun are not, and that is why their overboard preaching is met with strong resistance.

Are you telepathic?

If not, you should try sticking to commenting what people say and not what you think they're thinking. Because most likely they're not thinking about you.

Also, just how does that logic work in general? When ever someone makes what he or she considers an ethical choice and says it out loud, it's somehow a bad thing?

That kind of makes any good discussion on ethics rather impossible.

Also, I really fail to see how you're willing to "live and let live", when at the same time you're aggressively shoving your ideas pretty much down everyones throats right in this thread.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by peter12

Absolutely. No argument there. As I said, you don't have to gorge yourself on the white cardboard box of frozen beef discs on sale at Safeway.

You just finished saying buy less desirable cuts of meat and organs, what do you think goes into those cheap burgers?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

The best part is the cheeks. I love pork. How could eating something so tasty be wrong. We do a full pig roast every year in Manitoba. Of course my sister won't eat it and her husband drools over it but won't touch it for fear of the backlash from my sister. Funny thing is she runs a raw dog food company.

Your bro in law needs to grow a set.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Itse

Are you telepathic?

If not, you should try sticking to commenting what people say and not what you think they're thinking. Because most likely they're not thinking about you.

Also, just how does that logic work in general? When ever someone makes what he or she considers an ethical choice and says it out loud, it's somehow a bad thing?

That kind of makes any good discussion on ethics rather impossible.

I couldn't agree with you more and wish this sort of reasoning was applied across the board on all topics of ethics and politics and the like.

[Dion]

Many who oppose the eating of animals often propose to us to eat more plants and vegetables to stop animals suffering in this world. They propose that stopping the consumption of eating animals will stop the raising and suffering of farm animals.

What is strange is that this does not stop animal death or suffering; animals will still have an end in their life. If allowed to be around their whole lifespan, they will have a long life but will still eventually die. Further, the overall condition of their life may not always be good. Keeping an animal for many years allows the animal to experience a longer life, but also old age, and the various sufferings that come with deteriorating physical health. Many of these animals will actually experience more suffering from living longer years than living fewer years. In old age, they may succumb to weakening bones, breaks, falls, heart problems, cancer and all other health problems related to old age.

In addition, by not allowing our symbiotic relationship with animals to take place, it would also take away the animal’s life purpose in life. You keep them from fulfilling their contribution to the world. How can they experience a meaningful life without contributing something in return. Their lives do mean something when they are used for human sustenance, and arguably they enjoy a much better quality of life. It allows the animals life to have a much more meaningful purpose in this life.

It is the nature of animals to eat other animals. They are carnivorous, and their bodies are built to eat meat. Their instincts drive them to consume meat. Lions eat meat. Sharks eat meat. Crocodiles eat meat. There are numerous examples of animals that eat meat and it is perfectly natural for them to do so.

If we don’t eat meat are we ceasing form our true nature. Our bodies are capable of eating and digesting meat. We even have teeth to tear meat up. Biologically, we are built to consume meat. If we adopt a vegetarian lifestyle, one could say that we are deviating from our true nature and adopting unnatural lifestyles.

http://www.dairymoos.com/is-eating-meat-ethical/

[stampsx2]

^^^ you should stop reading that website. Terrible arguements, terrible reasoning. In a way it's actually offensive.