Ongoing Terrorism/ISIS/al Qaeda Thread

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by blankall

Where is this data coming from?

Are these 1960s and 1970s UK attacks all IRA?

The numbers from this list of attacks in the UK certainly don't add up to the above showing hundreds killed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Great_Britain

https://www.statista.com/chart/4093/...pe-since-1970/

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

Where is this data coming from?

Are these 1960s and 1970s UK attacks all IRA?

The numbers from this list of attacks in the UK certainly don't add up to the above showing hundreds killed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Great_Britain

Most of the deaths were in N Ireland, your wiki post excludes those, the troubles caused around 4000 deaths as I recall.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

Yup, I don't really think you're going to get a rational argument that Iraq was a good decision.

It still didn't create the underlying problems. We didn't turn it into a medieval tribal theocracy, we removed the person that was preventing it from happening previously.

We created the situation where it could flourish, but the roots of sectarian violence were obviously there.

It created ISIS, full stop, ISIS was a function of Sunni alienation in Iraq, it spread from there but our actions were responsible for it.

[nik-]

It didn't create ISIS, and definitely not full stop. The base organization existed before 9/11. Sunni alienation resulted from a Shia majority and a president that catered to that Shia majority, which is something that would have happened with Saddam not there, regardless if the west invaded or not.

We created the stage, not the actors or the motivations.

The middle east is quite capable of being violent without us being puppet masters over everything, and to think we're responsible for it all is pretty patronizing.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

It didn't create ISIS, and definitely not full stop. The base organization existed before 9/11. Sunni alienation resulted from a Shia majority and a president that catered to that Shia majority, which is something that would have happened with Saddam not there, regardless if the west invaded or not.

We created the stage, not the actors or the motivations.

The middle east is quite capable of being violent without us being puppet masters over everything, and to think we're responsible for it all is pretty patronizing.

The Ba'ath party was in control of Iraq before Saddam, it was a fairly brutal but completely secular Arab socialist party and would likely would have maintened control after he died.
ISIS itself was formed from ex Baathist officers we fired from the Iraqi military, its creation was utterly our fault.

[nik-]

Never their fault, evil western imperialism forced their hand.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

Never their fault, evil western imperialism forced their hand.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying we caused this by our stupidity.

I'll use Northern Ireland instead if it helps, there would always be some Catholics that hoped for a united Ireland's, but the resurgence of the IRA in the sixties was caused by the absolute ####ty treatment meted out to Catholics by the Protestant ruling class in N Ireland fully supported by the UK goverment, as such I have no problem blaming my own governments policies, which cost me the life of a friend, for the mess we were in through the 70's.

[nik-]

Ok, I'm just suggesting it's another in a long line of excuses for a culture that is stuck in the 1200's

"They were a cultural and scientific haven ... but then Reconquista"

"They were a cultural and scientific haven ... but then Mongols"

"... Sykes Piqot" "... Iraq"

It's always the fault of the west, or someone else? It's never a failing of the culture which is impeded by a religious framework that stifles equality and advancement?

Cultures all over the world have progressed under adverse conditions and don't get the free pass the Middle East does.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The left can stop this trend if we can get everyone to pull their damned heads out of the sand and speak honestly and directly about the problems we face, by consistent reference to our liberal values.

Just win those hearts and minds, right?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

If we start a war, which we did in Iraq, it makes no difference if the civilians we killed in our aggressive actions were an accident, we are morally culpable for all of them just as much as the suicide bombers, we only get to hide behind 'it was an accident' if we didn't start the war.

Who is "we"? Canada didn't invade Iraq. Neither did France or Belgium. Were the Charlie Hebdo satirists murdered because the U.S. invaded Iraq?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by nik-

Cultures all over the world have progressed under adverse conditions and don't get the free pass the Middle East does.

60 years ago South Korea was a backwards, impoverished, agrarian country that had been occupied and fought over by great powers for centuries, and lay wrecked by war. 25 years later it was one of the most technologically advanced and prosperous countries in the world.

The most telling figure to explain the failure of modernity to take hold in much of the Islamic world is the number of patents filed.

Number of patents filed from 2002 to 2007:

Israel (7.5 million people): 7,082
North Africa and the rest of the Middle East (409 million people): 680 patents

Or, if that seems unfair because of GDP differences -

Israel (7.5 million people): 1,416 patents per year
Saudi Arabia (28 million people): 37 patents per year

Much of the Islamic world is oppressed by the dead hand of a backwards looking religious credo that started with the Ottoman sultan shutting down the country's observatories back when it was the most scientifically advanced state in the world, and continued with the banning of the printing press in many parts of the Islamic world, through to today when girls aren't allowed to attend school in may countries.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

60 years ago South Korea was a backwards, impoverished, agrarian country that had been occupied and fought over by great powers for centuries, and lay wrecked by war. 25 years later it was one of the most technologically advanced and prosperous countries in the world.

The most telling figure to explain the failure of modernity to take hold in much of the Islamic world is the number of patents filed.

Number of patents filed from 2002 to 2007:

Israel (7.5 million people): 7,082
North Africa and the rest of the Middle East (409 million people): 680 patents

Or, if that seems unfair because of GDP differences -

Israel (7.5 million people): 1,416 patents per year
Saudi Arabia (28 million people): 37 patents per year

Much of the Islamic world is oppressed by the dead hand of a backwards looking religious credo that started with the Ottoman sultan shutting down the country's observatories back when it was the most scientifically advanced state in the world, and continued with the banning of the printing press in many parts of the Islamic world, through to today when girls aren't allowed to attend school in may countries.

Don't forget that Israel filed for all of those patents since the Holocaust. All the excuses people keep trying to make simply perpetuate the problems.

When is enough enough?

[Looch City]

Doesn't Israel also get billions of dollars per year from US?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

Doesn't Israel also get billions of dollars per year from US?

Anti-semite!

EDIT: To be fair, so does KSA.

[Looch City]

Actually the patents bring up another point...literacy of the population.

Could it be said that higher chances of radicalism are seen in societies with lower literacy?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

Actually the patents bring up another point...literacy of the population.

Could it be said that higher chances of radicalism are seen in societies with lower literacy?

Literacy and censorship both would have an impact I'd imagine.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

Doesn't Israel also get billions of dollars per year from US?

In what form - military aid and sales? The U.S. has also given Egypt and Saudi Arabia massive loans and aid for military procurement. Pakistan too, which was an important American ally in the Cold War. Doesn't seem to have generated any great outburst of scientific or research activity.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In what form - military aid and sales? The U.S. has also given Egypt and Saudi Arabia massive loans and aid for military procurement. Pakistan too, which was an important American ally in the Cold War. Doesn't seem to have generated any great outburst of scientific or research activity.

Because the people there are too busy trying to survive with what little they've got. Quality of life between Saudi Arabia and Israel...night and day.

As I said, it's more complicated than blaming one thing. Politics of the region is huge along with the power hungry people and groups ready to take full advantage of the situation.

[Looch City]

Jordan is a good juxtaposition of the area.

An Islamic (Sunni) country that shares borders with Saudi Arabia, Israel, Syria, and Iraq.

- Hasn't witnessed any large scale attacks in over a decade and since this ISIS mess started.
- High quality of life according to the current indexes.
- Governed by a monarchy that seems more sane than some politicians we have on this side of the world.
- Literacy rate of 98.2% (Israel = 97.8% for comparison)
- They have also taken in over 100k Syrian refugees with I think 3 large scale camps built for them.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

Because the people there are too busy trying to survive with what little they've got. Quality of life between Saudi Arabia and Israel...night and day.

As I said, it's more complicated than blaming one thing. Politics of the region is huge along with the power hungry people and groups ready to take full advantage of the situation.

Originally Posted by Iggy City

Jordan is a good juxtaposition of the area.

An Islamic (Sunni) country that shares borders with Saudi Arabia, Israel, Syria, and Iraq.

- Hasn't witnessed any large scale attacks in over a decade and since this ISIS mess started.
- High quality of life according to the current indexes.
- Governed by a monarchy that seems more sane than some politicians we have on this side of the world.
- Literacy rate of 98.2% (Israel = 97.8% for comparison)
- They have also taken in over 100k Syrian refugees with I think 3 large scale camps built for them.

So why can Jordan do what the others can't?

Also, you were making the excuse that people are 'too busy trying to survive' and then illustrate a country that is completely different. So it isn't some regional disadvantage, and they are all resource-rich, relative to many countries.

So why the low literacy rates, terrible human rights records, and extreme likelihood of conflict and terrorism in the other countries?