[PGT] Jets shot down in Flames (4-1)

[polak]

Like the effort but I wouldn't mind giving Hiller a few starts in a row here just to get the tank back in swing.

That way the team can still play as hard as they can and give it their all but we can pick up some Matthews points. Everybody wins! .... well, except the Flames....

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by debil

Sure it's difficult to tell them to lose intentionally but you can scratch your top players call up some farm guys and prospects. yet it is still doable, Peter Forsberg admitted their national team tanked in the olympics to avoid canada/russia and you know what they won the gold.

First, as has been said over and over, aside from emergency call-ups, the Flames are limited in how many scratch/callups they can do now. So it's got to be judicious. Last night you had Nakladal, Hamilton, and Hathaway in the lineup and Agostino called up but hurt. You also have a crapload of guys who are very young, on all lines. And based on the way Wideman went off, I'd say you are likely to see another call-up right away.

Like Cali said, you just can't ask NHL players to lose and then expect them to win later on.

[CroFlames]

Refreshing to come into a PGT and see the majority of Flames fans NOT embracing the tank or cheering for losses.

Tanking doesn't guarantee you anything at the draft. But it sure sends the wrong message to guys fighting for NHL jobs, and young guys who are learning how to be a pro. In my mind, an active tank is far more detrimental to your team and a couple of extra percentage points at a top 3 pick don't outweigh the negatives. Not by a long shot.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by debil

Great. Again no top3 pick , this was perfect season to get top talent for the first line, but no flames have to start winning in the most unwanted moment. Enjoy watching big top-end talent RW Puljujarvi in some other jersey and make yourself proud you didn't tank in those last totally useless games.

[Toonage]

Matthew Barnaby of all people had a great point a few weeks ago on NHL Network radio. Why would a player want to intentionally lose so the team can get a better draft position when the likelihood exists that the player you draft can steal your job?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by 3rd line Grinder

Stone got a nod for 50% of a season last year for the Calder....

Stone had the points and goals to be #1...

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Stone had the points and goals to be #1...

Yeah Giordano has had a good not great season and IMO will be in tough to even make the World Cup team let alone be in the conversation for the Norris. He was a train wreck in his own end for the first two months, got hot offensively in the middle of the season but started struggling again in the last month. Statistically he's having a good season but he's a lesser version of Karlsson in that his points at times come at the expense of some shoddy defensive coverage. Taking off the homer glasses I simply don't see how any Flames fan can look at his overall body of work this season and conclude that he ha been Norris worthy.

[saillias]

I feel the same way as Debil basically.

Oh yeah it's great that Frolik and Backlund have really started to click and Ortio's gone above .900 and Monahan is picking it up... in mid-March when we've long since descended to the basement. Where was this in November when a spot in the Pacific was within reach. Today? Doesn't help this team a lick long-term

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah Giordano has had a good not great season and IMO will be in tough to even make the World Cup team let alone be in the conversation for the Norris. He was a train wreck in his own end for the first two months, got hot offensively in the middle of the season but started struggling again in the last month. Statistically he's having a good season but he's a lesser version of Karlsson in that his points at times come at the expense of some shoddy defensive coverage. Taking off the homer glasses I simply don't see how any Flames fan can look at his overall body of work this season and conclude that he ha been Norris worthy.

Giordano is MUCH more of a two way defenceman than Karlsson will ever be. He's definitely had his struggles this year, but the last two seasons Giordano was legitimately in the conversation for best all around defenceman in the league (before his injuries). Not comparable players, at all.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Matthew Barnaby of all people had a great point a few weeks ago on NHL Network radio. Why would a player want to intentionally lose so the team can get a better draft position when the likelihood exists that the player you draft can steal your job?

See but we have Hiller. Simply starting our intended #1 increases our chances of a loss tenfold. Give him a good run of games and lets get back in the top 3.

I don't care how much pride you have but this completely wasted season is not going to feel much better just cause we go on a little tear to end the season and play ourselves out of a top 5 pick.

Hiller! Hiller! Hiller! Hiller!

[You Need a Thneed]

Intentionally losing games to get a 25% chance of getting a top 3 pick vs a 20% chance of getting a top 3 pick - doesn't make any sense.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by codynw

Giordano is MUCH more of a two way defenceman than Karlsson will ever be. He's definitely had his struggles this year, but the last two seasons Giordano was legitimately in the conversation for best all around defenceman in the league (before his injuries). Not comparable players, at all.

That's why I said "lesser version" as he's not as good offensively and not as bad defensively but they both have similar strengths and weaknesses. I don't consider Giordano a shutdown defenseman and that's my opinion as I see him as a risk taker at times and a guy that loses his man around the net. Not a lot different than Hamilton actually with the exception one player is a vet and one is 23.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by polak

See but we have Hiller. Simply starting our intended #1 increases our chances of a loss tenfold. Give him a good run of games and lets get back in the top 3.

I don't care how much pride you have but this completely wasted season is not going to feel much better just cause we go on a little tear to end the season and play ourselves out of a top 5 pick.

Hiller! Hiller! Hiller! Hiller!

How does that help Ortio, one of the 4 goalies we currently have that might actually play for us next season?

"Sorry Orts, we're playing to lose so.... popcorn?"

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by polak

See but we have Hiller. Simply starting our intended #1 increases our chances of a loss tenfold. Give him a good run of games and lets get back in the top 3.

I don't care how much pride you have but this completely wasted season is not going to feel much better just cause we go on a little tear to end the season and play ourselves out of a top 5 pick.

Hiller! Hiller! Hiller! Hiller!

So basically give the illusion that the coach/GM want the team to compete by icing a competent squad but give them their worst goaltending option. I think that would turf morale and the players would end up distrusting their coaches.

I see the arguments from both sides, but I just can't get behind intentionally sabotaging a team regardless of their standing or the remaining schedule. If you planned on turning over 75% or more of the roster next season, fine. Barely anyone would would be around to carry over harsh feelings or apathy.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Intentionally losing games to get a 25% chance of getting a top 3 pick vs a 20% chance of getting a top 3 pick - doesn't make any sense.

As much as the new draft system could potentially be very annoying, it does seem to have a good chance to fulfill its purpose: to eliminate any form of tanking. Playing the percentages, it just makes no sense to purposely lose for higher pick when you factor in the ramifications to team building/morale/culture.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That's why I said "lesser version". I don't consider Giordano a shutdown defenseman and that's my opinion as I see him as a risk taker at times and a guy that loses his man around the net. Not a lot different than Hamilton actually with the exception one player is a vet and one is 23.

Like I said, I'll agree that he's had his struggles this season, but the two previous seasons he was one of the best in the league in both ends of the rink.

[dash_pinched]

Originally Posted by polak

See but we have Hiller. Simply starting our intended #1 increases our chances of a loss tenfold. Give him a good run of games and lets get back in the top 3.

I don't care how much pride you have but this completely wasted season is not going to feel much better just cause we go on a little tear to end the season and play ourselves out of a top 5 pick.

Hiller! Hiller! Hiller! Hiller!

And yet the player the Flames selected 6th overall in 2013 leads his entire draft class in goals scored. The Flames are going to get a pretty good player (hopefully) regardless of where they finish, I say enjoy the wins when they come and don't fret over losses as the season winds down.

[polak]

Originally Posted by MattyC

How does that help Ortio, one of the 4 goalies we currently have that might actually play for us next season?

"Sorry Orts, we're playing to lose so.... popcorn?"

I'm not saying don't play Ortio at all. Maybe split the games? Like we can increase our odds at a better pick while still competing and entertaining the fans.

I see giving Hiller 50% of the games from here on in as a no lose (besides the standings) situation.

[Toonage]

My bet is that Ortio plays 8 of the remaining games, Backstrom plays 4 and we never see Hiller again quite frankly.

[nik-]

I want a high draft pick, but I know whether they even tried to tank or not (which they wouldn't), the Flames will win enough to put them out of that consistent loser territory. So #### it.

As such, start Ortio again and again. The less he has that cloud over his head, afraid to make any mistake and ride the pine for 18 games, the better he's playing.

Then we won't have to hear people talk about how 4 games was enough to determine he's hot garbage or how he didn't get enough chance to show himself. The opportunity to learn about this goalie is now. This coach would be ridiculous to not find out.