When is our rebuild no longer a rebuild?

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I agree. Can I get you to give me an example of using the word in a positive context?

The ######er on the brake system lost it's hydraulics so we had to bring the truck in for an overhaul.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The rangers are pretenders because they're a bad team that relies on elite goaltending. Their corsi and power play stats both reflect that.

Good corsi correlates to contender
Good goaltending + Good special teams + Good even strength Play cause being a contender.
Good corsi reflects good even strength play. It does not cause it.

Quit being obtuse.

I wasn't being obtuse, I simply pointed out your prior post

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Lanny'sDaMan

The ######er on the brake system lost it's hydraulics so we had to bring the truck in for an overhaul.

That's a positive result? I think an overhaul would be pretty negative.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I wasn't being obtuse, I simply pointed out your prior post

The prior post you pointed out impiied causation nowhere. It pointed to an effect (Corsi/PP%) of poor play. You're the only one talking about causation.

EDIT: There was one causation implied actually. Anton Stralman.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Can he score without Gaudreau, yes he can.

But Gaudreau plays on the first line?

[automaton 3]

Just for interest's sake - Monahan is 9th in goal scoring for centers since he entered the league in 2013.

5 goals behind Toews. Ahead of Giroux, Duchesne, Carter, Johansen, ect.

10 more goals than Kopitar.

15 more than MacKinnon.

Pretty good company.

[Flamescuprun2018]

My nickname declares when I think the rebuild is over and we should be declared a true contender.

We are stacked at C, getting stacked at LW and stacked on D.

We just need 2 goalies and 2 RWs. Gillies is one of those goalies I think.

We have a very capable extremely dedicated GM mentored by Burkie that knows how to add assets by optimal timing of moves.

We now seem to know how to scout. We are batting above league average with our last 5 drafts making it to the NHL.

If we find that number one goalie in FA; draft Laine/Puljujarvi/Tkachuk; and sign another FA scoring RW, we will be on the cusp. Add in Jankowski contributing and one or more of Shinkaruk, Poirier, Klimchuk, Pollock or Mangiapane...it is simply a matter of time.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I agree. Can I get you to give me an example of using the word in a positive context?

The best I can think of is not using it.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Hold YOUR horses there. The 2014 Rangers had Anton Stralman and fulfiled my criteria with mostly Flying Colors:

52.4% CF
52.6% FF
15th ranked PP

This year's Rangers do not.

47.7% CF
48.5% FF
23rd ranked PP

It does not get more pretender than that. They're not the same team.

Anton Stralman was the difference?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Anton Stralman was the difference?

Anton Stralman plays a style of game that the Corsi thinks is very good. Marc Staal? Not so good apparently. Does it match reality? Eh. It's hard to find stats that measure all of the things that physical defensive defensemen like Staal contribute. Corsi seems to vastly underrate physical, defensive defensemen is what I've noticed.

[gvitaly]

The rebuild stops being a rebuild when the Flames start consistently winning against the top teams in the league. What I mean by consistently is winning because of the way they play as a team, and not because of an off day for the opponents, lucky bounces, or an amazing individual effort.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Anton Stralman plays a style of game that the Corsi thinks is very good. Marc Staal? Not so good apparently. Does it match reality? Eh. It's hard to find stats that measure all of the things that physical defensive defensemen like Staal contribute. Corsi seems to vastly underrate physical, defensive defensemen is what I've noticed.

I'm sure Stralman has good Corsi, i'm just surprised he gets all the credit for such a massive swing in overall team Corsi and PP%. It seems mathematically impossible. Or maybe there's more to hockey than math....

[Macho0978]

Best case scenario is after next season. Guys like Smid, Engeland, Raymond and Wideman come off the books and gives us about 14 million in Cap Space and more than likely only Bennett as someone who will demand a raise.

I do like how things are shaping up after next year when it comes to the cap and age of our players. Timing could work in the flames advantage with only 1 concern of Giordano's play as he gets into his mid 30s. Assuming that Gaudreau and Monahan are locked up for 6-8 years this summer having Gio, Johnny, Monny, Brodie, Dougie wrapped up for 4 years straight at an average cap hit of around 6 in a cap world where more and more guys are getting 9-10 million a year is a great start

I also see Bennett burning an ELC last year as a positive as a 35 point rookie year and one year left on his contract could mean a favorable contract. Only way he gets 6 is if he has an amazing year next year and I'm sure we all take that

This years lottery plays a big part too. If we draft top 3 and end up with another top 6 forward who is guaranteed to be here for 7 years at minimum I think with all the cap space all that is needed is maybe a goalie and better depth.

I also see lots of talent coming from the prospects over the next 3 years as well that depth players could be filled through the farm not through UFA. This always helps as having guys like Ferland at 875k vs Stajan types at 3 plus mil helps keep and add to top end of your core

[HOWITZER]

I can't believe that Calgary made the playoffs last year, AND got Hamilton. Despite not having a lottery pick I definitely think it was a good draft!

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I'm going to say the rebuild stops being a rebuild when the following two criteria are met:

- The Flames identify their core moving forward
- The Core (on average) reaches what are likely their prime production years.

Once those two criteria are met, it stops being a rebuild, and should move into optimization mode to give yourself the best shot at a cup. If you fail misserably and incorrectly identify your core, or fail to acquire a solid core, the rebuild should re-start and continue on (Oilers mode) or you end up toiling in mediocrity for years (Flames post 04) and should have actually torn it down.

I think many of us got a little a head of ourselves with rebuild vs not rebuild last year with the unexpected results. But the Flames are still very much in a rebuild, which I think is actually a head of schedule. When this process started 2 years ago, I don't think we thought we'd have identified our future core this quickly. Hopefully we haven't miss stepped, but I think Johnny, Mony, Bennett, Brodie, (even Gio) and the acquistion of Hamilton have all "over achieved" in their own way on what they could accomplish this quickly and what their project ceilings might be.

Now it's all about solid asset management so we can surround those players with the right support cast when they "collectively" peak in what will likely be 2 to 3 seasons from now. Oh, and just the small little task of finding a good NHL goalie to be playing in their prime at around that time frame also.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Anton Stralman was the difference?

You would be surprised. The Lightning went from 11th in possession to 4th by adding Stralman. The Rangers fell from 7th in possession to 19th when they lost Stralman. Stralman is basically TJ Brodie lite, he's really damn good., He's been in the last two Stanley Cup Finals in a row.

Of course there are other changes, like HOFer Martin St. Louis that aren't on the Rangers anymore.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Anton Stralman plays a style of game that the Corsi thinks is very good.

Stralman plays a style of game that IS very good.

Marc Staal? Not so good apparently. Does it match reality? Eh. It's hard to find stats that measure all of the things that physical defensive defensemen like Staal contribute. Corsi seems to vastly underrate physical, defensive defensemen is what I've noticed.

Other than Hjalmarsson, Weber, Chara, Despres, Tanev, Martin, Methot, etc etc etc....

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

That's a positive result? I think an overhaul would be pretty negative.

Depends on your point of view, now doesn't it? If you're the guy who owns the truck, agreed. That's a pretty negative result. On the other hand, if you happen the be the shop owner/mechanic, well that's a pretty positive groove eh? EH?

[Vinny01]

When we traded Iggy and kipper retired I was thinking it was 5 years before we got out of the rebuild. Making the playoffs in year 2 was amazing and a huge surprise. To be honest I thought after last year we were ready to bust out and the rebuild would be over soon. This year could be the flames worst season since the Iggy trade but the difference is the emergence of a young core. We know Gaudreau, Monahan, and Bennett can play. Brodie and Gio are better than I ever imagined after the rebuild began.

The Flames are doing very well for 3 years along. I could see them bouncing back next year if they are able to add some pieces over the summer. I think though that 5 years could be the right number and we are more than halfway there with a surprise playoff season in the middle to make it a more enjoyable ride

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Okay this sounds more like a philosophy issue.

Some of us are comfortable "projecting" Bennett as a #1 centre and Monahan as a #1 centre. You don't want to "project" either of them into the future, you want to judge them as they are now. Which is totally fair, just a different viewpoint.

Some of us look at Bennett and think we know what he'll be in 2 years. And that is a #1 centre. Unlikely Monahan has plateued yet either so a lot of us are projecting him as a #1 centre as well. Therefore a lot of us think we have two legit #1 centres for the future so we're set there and are happy to pencil is whichever guy there we want, doesn't really matter.

If you want to take a more conservative, wait and see approach that's fair. But this is a thread about our rebuild in general so some people's lineup is their lineup projecting players 2 years into the future. So they are projecting the youngest kids to their full potential and in the roles they think they will grow into. Not the roles they are currently suited for.

I largely agree with this. There's a philosophical difference. But I just don't see people putting Poirer, Andersson, Jankowski, etc. into their lineups in terms of the rebuilt Flames. And these guys have high projections. Who knows, maybe we already have our #1 RW and starting goaltending in the works, but it's just a matter of time? People are putting Bennett and Monahan though, as their 1-2 punch already.

I mean if we're going to say we have two number 1 centre, two top pairing D, etc., then why do we suck so bad? That doesn't sound like a crappy team by having all these great pieces in place. That sounds like a built, ready to compete package. I think people need to take off the homer glasses, accept that were in the basement, and realize it's because our players are getting beat by their competitors. That includes guys like Bennett, Monahan, Hamilton, etc.

I think the rebuild is over when we have a legit 1-2 punch, like most good Western clubs. Will that be Monahan and Bennett? Yeah, probably. But if that was them now, the Flames wouldn't be in the position they're currently in.

The Oilers made the dire mistake of thinking they had a top line of Hall- Nuge-Eberle, but we all know that wasn't he case. It was an illusion as a result of ice time, offensive starts, and tolerance to their shortcomings. I don't see the Flames management making that mistake. They have to be critical, even that means questioning if they have those key pieces as being good enough.

Actually, now that I think of it, I believe the Flames has created poor rebuilds in the past based on poor projections of their "young guns"

[PeteMoss]

The clock on the rebuild ending will likely come when Hartley gets fired. That's when the management team says they are expecting results.