In empire Vader pitches to Luke overthrowing the emperor and ruling the galaxy together. The question I recently have is did Darth Vader save Luke out of Love or did he kill the emporer because he tried to get Luke to kill him
At that time, I think that Vader was still the monster that he was and still on the path to power, he also really wanted to kill his Master who he probably didn't have a great relationship with.
I think Luke's refusal to the temptations of power is what started Vader down the path to redemption.
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So I found this list of related Star Wars books over at CBR, I will spoiler it as I am not sure if there are things in here that will be revealed later in the movies.. but it is all in writing and cannon so not sure.
Spoiler!
I found this part to be pretty neat about the Shattered Empire comic series:
Quote:
The story takes place immediately following the events of “Return of the Jedi” and stars Shara Bey and Kes Dameron — Poe’s parents. Poe’s mother, Shara, was a Rebel pilot while his father, Kes, fought on the ground during the battle of Endor. The series shows Shara and Kes interacting with Luke, Han and Leia and tracks their journey from Rebels to parents of a very young Poe.
This series does not appear to be available on the Marvel Unlimited website though... yet.
A few more on that list including a short novel (224 pages) about the origins of Poe, Rey and Finn.
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Remake the prequels. Don't just redo what is there, throw them all out, go back to 4,5 and 6 and make a prequels that agree with them, but aren't tied to any of the crap form the current prequels. I'd be interested in a do-over and what ideas could be done, becuase frankly, the Clone Wars legend sounded way cooler than what we got.
There's actually a lot of really good stuff in the prequels. The political plot has some very good elements, the story is just terribly told. Heck, "this is how liberty ends, with thunderous applause" is actually a great line that's just completely wasted in a terrible movie.
There's also nothing fundamentaly wrong with the idea of Anakin falling to the dark side because of the combination of his love for Padme and his growing mistrust of the Jedi. You could easily re-write something really good out of that basic premise.
Well yes, you still need Anakin to fall to the dark side, and maybe what happened in the prequels is a way to do it, but I'm not sure it was the best way. They certainly didn't need to have her die(and they shouldn't have, to be consistent with ROTJ).
If you are going to remake them, a better telling of all the main plot points isn't going to cut it. Ideally you could get a really good writer who never saw the prequels, only saw 4,5,6 and now 7 to come up with a back story that fits.
There's actually a lot of really good stuff in the prequels. The political plot has some very good elements, the story is just terribly told. Heck, "this is how liberty ends, with thunderous applause" is actually a great line that's just completely wasted in a terrible movie.
There's also nothing fundamentaly wrong with the idea of Anakin falling to the dark side because of the combination of his love for Padme and his growing mistrust of the Jedi. You could easily re-write something really good out of that basic premise.
I would agree with this, the all encompassing story line was good, the execution of it was clumsy and the dialogue was pretty poor.
But the Palpatine storyline was probably my favorite part of the prequels and Ian's performance as Palpatine was awesome. The best scene in the prequels was the opera house scene where Ian knocks it out of the park.
The whole story of how Palpatine used the arrogance of the Jedi against them and manipulated every one was excellent.
To me there was a logic to Anakin's fall that could have been explored in depth. But the boy raised in slavery who craved the power to release the slaves. The boy who went away to become a jedi only to fail to protect his mother, the boy who fell in love and feared losing her like his mother makes tremendous sense.
As well he was manipulated by the Jedi and denied the power that he craved were the dark roots going back to his slavery. That he was held down and not respected by the Jedi was a bigger part of it. I remember the scene when he lamented that it would be better to end the war, aluding to using every resource to do it made sense in shaping Vader.
Palpatines manipulation of Anakin and the major lies that lead to his downfall were also logical.
The clone wars being a chess game between two players on one side that ensured that no matter what happened the Sith were going to win, loved it.
I liked the idea of showing Anakin as a young boy and a slave, where the mistake was is that at times you didn't feel like he was a slave, but more like an adopted son of Watto. That was a mistake in execution.
Ewan was excellent through out the movie.
The biggest mistake was making the first movie a bit two bright, the second movie a bit too much of a love story, I feel that they finally got it right in the third movie with a few cringe worthy moments.
The story could be tweaked and more focused but the underlying bones of it made sense to me.
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Well yes, you still need Anakin to fall to the dark side, and maybe what happened in the prequels is a way to do it, but I'm not sure it was the best way. They certainly didn't need to have her die(and they shouldn't have, to be consistent with ROTJ).
If you are going to remake them, a better telling of all the main plot points isn't going to cut it. Ideally you could get a really good writer who never saw the prequels, only saw 4,5,6 and now 7 to come up with a back story that fits.
I believe she had to die to cement Anakin to the Dark Side, I believe that Anakin had to believe that he killed her to cement himself to Sidious who would be the only person that understood what he did and forgave him for it in Vaders mind.
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I believe she had to die to cement Anakin to the Dark Side, I believe that Anakin had to believe that he killed her to cement himself to Sidious who would be the only person that understood what he did and forgave him for it in Vaders mind.
I definitely agree with you it made it so he had nothing to go back to. No reason to ever seek forgiveness. Even if he blamed palpatine for it it would only make him pursue the dark side further so he could overthrow him
Episode 3 is pretty good on its own. The other two could have been done far better. I'd even support changing the one line in Jedi of leia remembering her mother to support the chain of events in 3.
Palpatine laying it all on the line betting he knows what's in Anakins heart is great. You could clean up the dialog a bit in 3 but that movies themes is really good.
I believe she had to die to cement Anakin to the Dark Side, I believe that Anakin had to believe that he killed her to cement himself to Sidious who would be the only person that understood what he did and forgave him for it in Vaders mind.
I always thought (before the prequels) that when Leia mentioned that she didn't remember much of her mother, just that she was very sad, that Anakin had fallen to the dark side and abandon her, maybe she had to flee and hide. I never once thought she died in child birth, as that would be dumb, given the context.
I understand what you are saying, but I've noticed in a lot of your posts that you have a ton of knowledge of the SW universe, and have obviously spent a lot of time with the books and shows. I think that might be clouding your view that alternatives could exist for the past based only on what we say in the original 3. As someone who hasn't delved into any of that stuff, I found the prequels to be forced, a lot of the concepts to be silly, and I'd think the future of the series could benefit by not being hamstrung by a lot of it.
I doubt it will happen, but it doesn't hurt to imagine alternatives to what we got. I mean, if you really want to keep all that you can, but they still didn't have to kill her. She could have take Leia into seclusion to live. That last scene was just like a final kick in the ballz from George that he really didn't understand what he had written, and didn't care. I found it one of the most insulting moments of the prequels. I'm surprised he didn't edit the line out of ROTJ "Special" Edition.
I definitely agree with you it made it so he had nothing to go back to. No reason to ever seek forgiveness. Even if he blamed palpatine for it it would only make him pursue the dark side further so he could overthrow him
Episode 3 is pretty good on its own. The other two could have been done far better. I'd even support changing the one line in Jedi of leia remembering her mother to support the chain of events in 3.
Palpatine laying it all on the line betting he knows what's in Anakins heart is great. You could clean up the dialog a bit in 3 but that movies themes is really good.
1 and 2 are brutal though.
Oh. Oh hell no. (yes I posted before I read this). That was a very powerful moment in ROTJ. What do you repalce it with?
Luke: I have no memory of my mother.
Leia: Ya, me neither.
..wickets....
There was zero reason to actually kill her, other than to force some unnecessary conclusion at that point of the movie. Perhaps it was Lucas thinking he needed to explain away EVERYTHING( see midoclorians) rather than leaving something for the audience to figure out. Retroactive editing of 30 year old movies to support an unnecessary plot points? Ya, no thanks.
A friend of mine told me of an idea to remake the episodes 1-3 by creating a secret love interest between Padme and Obiwan that eventually leads to Anakin turning to the dark side, after being betrayed by who he believed to be his two greatest friends.
Obiwan, feeling responsible for the result, concludes to watch over and protect Anakin's son as he grows up on Tatooine.
I think the biggest problem with the prequels is that we hear about all the great adventures Obiwan and Anakin go on, but we never actually see them. So it's hard to really believe and at the same time appreciate Anakin's fall. It all seems to happen so quickly in the movies and it doesn't feel real.
I think this idea would really help make things make a lot more sense. It also lets you change the way you think about Obiwan, who seems throughout the entire series as a completely untainted character.
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A friend of mine told me of an idea to remake the episodes 1-3 by creating a secret love interest between Padme and Obiwan that eventually leads to Anakin turning to the dark side, after being betrayed by who he believed to be his two greatest friends.
Obiwan, feeling responsible for the result, concludes to watch over and protect Anakin's son as he grows up on Tatooine.
I think the biggest problem with the prequels is that we hear about all the great adventures Obiwan and Anakin go on, but we never actually see them. So it's hard to really believe and at the same time appreciate Anakin's fall. It all seems to happen so quickly in the movies and it doesn't feel real.
I think this idea would really help make things make a lot more sense. It also lets you change the way you think about Obiwan, who seems throughout the entire series as a completely untainted character.
Except Obi-Wan was as perfect of a Jedi as there was, no attachments and serving the Force over top of everything else. In Canon the only woman that he really every loved was Satine of Madalore in the Clone Wars and he never fell to that temptation.
I would hate to have the idea that Anakin fell to Vader over jealousy, and have Obi-Wan as the cheating guy, it would make people cheer when Vader struck him down.
I think that the idea that they had, that Anakin who had suffered loss through his own life, the loss of his freedom and self determination as a child slave, the loss of his mother and his inability to save her, and the fear of losing his wife and child, was actually well thought out. Anakin basically craved power so he could save everyone and protect everyone, he was also not raised as a jedi so he had cravings for attachments which leads to greed.
He was ripe to fall because of those base emotions, all it took was a little push, and Palpatine played if perfectly.
Hey Anakin, I can give you power that you can't learn from a Jedi.
Yo dude, the Jedi are lying to you, and they're planning to murder the only true father figure that you've ever had, namely me.
Hey man, only I can give you the path to power to save the ones that you love from dying, including your wife.
And last but not least. I can give you a life free of constraints where you can become the greatest and most powerful Force User in the galaxy, this will allow you to live a life of significance and be the hero that you want to be, and shape your own life.
If you had Obi-Wan and Padme canoodling, then literally, Anakin becomes a misunderstood and twisted hero, and Obi-Wan and Padme as the villains that lead to the down fall of the galaxy.
If you look at the Sith Code, you can see Anakins fall in it manipulated by Palpatine and caused by the Jedi
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. (Anakin was not raised by the jedi, he had the emotions that they tried to purge. Love, Hate, jealousy, possessiveness)Through passion, I gain strength.(Palpatine basically encouraged him to use those emotions, when fighting Dooku he encouraged him to use his anger through Dooku, and then gave him permission to kill Dooko. From that point on Anakin felt that strength and anger and then was further encouraged "I can feel your anger it gives you focus and makes you stronger")Through strength, I gain power. (On Mustafar when he confronted Padme, he said, I am growing stronger then any Jedi, and I can save you with these powers and we can make the galaxy the way we want to)Through power, I gain victory. (After Anakin was wounded, and accepted the Dark Side and its power, he became incredibly powerful in the force again, and over came his injuries)Through victory, my chains are broken. (For a time this was true. But the true lie of the Darkside is you may become truly powerful, your chains are never truly broken and you become a slave to your destiny. Anakin because of the murder of his wife due to the influence of Palpatine and the Darkside was re-enslaved by both the force and by Palpatine) The Force shall free me (This was the rub. He was free from morality in search of a higher goal. He was free to truly use his powers how he wanted to. But he was still a slave)
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Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Last edited by CaptainCrunch; 01-06-2016 at 10:08 PM.
Is it not possible that Leia simply assumed that Queen Organa was her real mother, and that this is who she was referencing in the conversation with Luke? He has no memory of his mother and at that exact moment she isn't fully aware that they're twins, so I always assumed it logical that Leia never knew that she was a twin who'd been separated from her real mother and sibling at birth.
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