2 Mac's employees killed in 2 separate stores in Edmonton

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by GGG

I have the other reaction when someone this young kills someone. Society failed this 13 year old kid. Yeah he needs to be locked away because he's likely unredeemable but society failed him.

I don't know about society failing him/her but the parents sure a @#%$ did.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I don't know about society failing him/her but the parents sure a @#%$ did.

How much you want to bet the parents likely don't care what these guys did

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I don't know about society failing him/her but the parents sure a @#%$ did.

You could easily make a case, and would likely be 100% correct, that the parents didn't have the tools to deal with the kid, so instead just let him do his thing.

It's a cycle.

Parents don't know how to deal with their kids because their parents didn't know how to deal with them. Kids screw up and then the cycle continues.

I am a foster parent and you look at these kids who come in where they were taken from their parents up because of abuse, neglect, etc and there is almost always evidence of the same thing happening to the parents. You give these kids a better environment, either by educating the parents or moving them to a safe home, and you improve their chances in life for sure. More importantly, you break the cycle of neglect and abuse, so that their kids don't have the same thing happen to them.

An example from my personal life: I remember a time when my kids were acting up, and knowing I was a bit of a handful when I was younger, I asked my mom what she did with us, so I could maybe get some pointers. She flat out said, "You can't do what I did, because I just smacked the living #### out of you." It made me think, before becoming a foster parent, where you must agree not to use physical discipline on ANY child in your home, including your own, I would spank my kids. It never really stopped the bad behaviour, because kids will be kids, but that's what In was raised on, so that's what I did. Now, I use different techniques, and of course they still don't make my kids perfect, but they work better or just as well as the spankings did.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Rathji

The YOA has provisions for people to be tried as an adult, depending on the circumstances, so I have no idea how these events would encourage abolishing it.

As someone who broke the occasional law as a kid, I would have been screwed up if I would have ended up in jail or with a criminal record that would have impacted my chances of getting a job out of school etc. It's not like I didn't have consequences, but they just didn't end up with me being in jail. I was a good kid, but made some bad choices from time to time as I was growing up.

I imagine there are many other people in that same situation.

I agree with this to an extent, the yoa or whatever its called now, should be put in place to protect the type of kid that makes what I would think were obvious bad decisions, or where society or his parents fail the child.

However, my gut tells me to stop in this case, reading about this case churns my stomach. These three things were out to kill that night, its pretty clear to see. This wasn't the clerks resisting or fighting with the gun man. On the surveillance tape it sounds like these were executions for very little financial gain. This was as cold as you get, and as badly raised as anyone is, at the age of 13, you're cognizant enough to know that snuffing a persons life out is wrong. You don't need a parent or society to tell you that. Its the line that you don't cross, no matter what, and I'm of a mind that as soon as you cross that line its very difficult to go back, and also that the law should be applied to its maximum.

Now I have been wrong before, I remember being stunningly disturbed and upset when the young girl and her older boyfriend snuffed her parents and her brother out in Medicine Hat, and in my mind she was given a light juvenile sentence. But reading news reports on her, it sounds like she's worked very hard to change from the angry, disturbed kid that she was to holding down a job and going to university, and you hope that each night she feels a lot of remorse for what she did.

But she was an explosion of violence, whereas this kid sounds like he has a long history of it.

To be honest, I would be a lousy judge, because I doubt that in murder cases, I would want to hear or care about excuses. "I was hooked on drugs, I was beaten up by my dad, people called me names", in the case of violent crimes, the question in my mind would be "did you do it", and "were you defending yourself"

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I agree with this to an extent, the yoa or whatever its called now, should be put in place to protect the type of kid that makes what I would think were obvious bad decisions, or where society or his parents fail the child.

However, my gut tells me to stop in this case, reading about this case churns my stomach. These three things were out to kill that night, its pretty clear to see. This wasn't the clerks resisting or fighting with the gun man. On the surveillance tape it sounds like these were executions for very little financial gain. This was as cold as you get, and as badly raised as anyone is, at the age of 13, you're cognizant enough to know that snuffing a persons life out is wrong. You don't need a parent or society to tell you that. Its the line that you don't cross, no matter what, and I'm of a mind that as soon as you cross that line its very difficult to go back, and also that the law should be applied to its maximum.

Now I have been wrong before, I remember being stunningly disturbed and upset when the young girl and her older boyfriend snuffed her parents and her brother out in Medicine Hat, and in my mind she was given a light juvenile sentence. But reading news reports on her, it sounds like she's worked very hard to change from the angry, disturbed kid that she was to holding down a job and going to university, and you hope that each night she feels a lot of remorse for what she did.

But she was an explosion of violence, whereas this kid sounds like he has a long history of it.

To be honest, I would be a lousy judge, because I doubt that in murder cases, I would want to hear or care about excuses. "I was hooked on drugs, I was beaten up by my dad, people called me names", in the case of violent crimes, the question in my mind would be "did you do it", and "were you defending yourself"

Of course, it is totally likely that this kid should be tried as an adult.

I can't make that call with the virtually zero information that we have here, so I won't try.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Of course, it is totally likely that this kid should be tried as an adult.

I can't make that call with the virtually zero information that we have here, so I won't try.

Can a 13 year old be tried as an adult?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Can a 13 year old be tried as an adult?

It is up to the judge, but I think so

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Can a 13 year old be tried as an adult?

Murder is a presumptive offence. So it is presumed that the youth will be charged as an adult unless they can persuade the courts otherwise.

How he is charged will probably depend on his exact role.

Edit: Nevermind. That rule doesn't apply until 14. But yes, he could still get an adult sentence, there is no presumption and the onus is on the courts to state why he should be tried as an adult.

[Johnny199r]

I believe a 13 year old can't be tried as an adult for murder in Canada.

[afc wimbledon]

He'll be tried as a youth, it is incredibly difficult to raise under 14, and I'm not sure it's ever happened under 16 either, even though it's legally possible.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Rathji

You could easily make a case, and would likely be 100% correct, that the parents didn't have the tools to deal with the kid, so instead just let him do his thing.

It's a cycle.

Parents don't know how to deal with their kids because their parents didn't know how to deal with them. Kids screw up and then the cycle continues.

I am a foster parent and you look at these kids who come in where they were taken from their parents up because of abuse, neglect, etc and there is almost always evidence of the same thing happening to the parents. You give these kids a better environment, either by educating the parents or moving them to a safe home, and you improve their chances in life for sure. More importantly, you break the cycle of neglect and abuse, so that their kids don't have the same thing happen to them.

An example from my personal life: I remember a time when my kids were acting up, and knowing I was a bit of a handful when I was younger, I asked my mom what she did with us, so I could maybe get some pointers. She flat out said, "You can't do what I did, because I just smacked the living #### out of you." It made me think, before becoming a foster parent, where you must agree not to use physical discipline on ANY child in your home, including your own, I would spank my kids. It never really stopped the bad behaviour, because kids will be kids, but that's what In was raised on, so that's what I did. Now, I use different techniques, and of course they still don't make my kids perfect, but they work better or just as well as the spankings did.

I didn't know you were a foster parent, I am as well, we should do a 'I'm a foster parent, ask me anything' thread!

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I didn't know you were a foster parent, I am as well, we should do a 'I'm a foster parent, ask me anything' thread!

We could, I don't know how many people would be interested though, hah.

[psyang]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

I believe a 13 year old can't be tried as an adult for murder in Canada.

I wasn't sure myself, but did find this article. Sounds like it is possible.

A 13-year-old boy has been charged with manslaughter and an 18-year-old man with criminal negligence in the shooting death of 14-year-old Lecent Ross last month.

...

“A manslaughter conviction involving a firearm carries a four-year minimum sentence, but minimums don’t apply to minors,” Barry said, noting that the crown could apply to have the youth tried as an adult.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by psyang

I wasn't sure myself, but did find this article. Sounds like it is possible.

Yeah, even if possible, I don't know if it happens in practice, for that age. I've never heard of it.

[Johnny199r]

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/crim...r-revamped-law

This article confirms an adult sentence isn't possible for a 13 year old. Just as I thought.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Rathji

We could, I don't know how many people would be interested though, hah.

Well there's always the ever worrying 'I'm a single overweight middle aged man still living with my parents, would they give me an Asian kid?'

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Yeah, even if possible, I don't know if it happens in practice, for that age. I've never heard of it.

The judicial test for raising a youth to adult is, I believe, would the youth benefit from programs available in the youth system or are they beyond gaining any help from them.
It has very little to do with the crime itself and its impossible to argue a kid under 16 won't change and develop, under 17 and even then it's a tough sell to a judge.
All kids incidently are tried as children, the adult part only figures in sentancing.

[Flames_Gimp]

https://www.facebook.com/colton.steinhauer?fref=ts

scary lookin f'r

[CaptainCrunch]

He looks like what he is a thug, a punk, a useless murderer who hopefully never ever gets back into society.

[Jacks]

Wannabe gangster pieces of garbage.

Spoiler!

Spoiler!

FYI

Mac’s Convenience Stores has set up a bank account with CIBC to accept donations in support of the families of Cenabre and Bhangu. Donations can be made in person at any CIBC branch or by email transfer.