[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[PostandIn]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

The mayor obviously disagrees with you.

I do not.

But I also wonder KK can say the arena+stadium will cost $890MM, yet he has no clear image or renderings of how the arena and stadium will look. How can you know how much they will cost if you don't even have a design for them yet?

It's likely that the Flames have quite a bit of the required detail but chose, for tactical reasons, to release only high level stuff in the early stages so that the people with a negative bias to the project wouldn't get all up in arms that they already had a finite plan and were going to ram it forward without consultation, yadda, yadda.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by Muta

I understand people's expectations and anxiety on the CalgaryNEXT project to get going, but if you knew how the development / engineering / design / construction industry really operate, you wouldn't be surprised at the timelines. Not for a project like this.

It's been said already, but I think the problem stems from King saying 5 years was possible. He shouldn't have said that. When he said that, I assumed conceptual phase was done, and they were into DBM which doesn't appear to be the case. 5 years isn't a sprint, it's a dream.

[RM14]

The Flames only released details on the building and examples of what the surrounding density could look like. All of those details are for the city to determine. For example, KK specifically mentioned that they are not proposing to move any roads here... but, if the City wanted to then I am sure the Flames would have no problem with that. It wouldn't make sense for the Flames to release an official proposed design because it isn't even up to them how the city want's to design and integrate things like Bow Trail, the train, pedestrian bridges, the river, and the surrounding neighborhoods. These are still completely undecided and need a ton of analysis. That's why it's not even "half-baked", the flames are just proposing a place to do the dam baking!

[The Ditch]

It's insulting to all the tax payers in calgary for the flames to go, oh here's where we're going to put this, you figure the rest out, and by the way it's going to cost you a billion plus.

[RM14]

I would think it's more insulting that they would expect to design City infrastructure with taxpayers dollars

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

It's been said already, but I think the problem stems from King saying 5 years was possible. He shouldn't have said that. When he said that, I assumed conceptual phase was done, and they were into DBM which doesn't appear to be the case. 5 years isn't a sprint, it's a dream.

Yes, I agree the five-year comment was a bit hasty. KK is not a construction guy, but he's learning. He has to, it's his job now haha.

[Biyaaaah]

This is the best that KK could come up with after telling us at Season Ticket Holder Events since 2007 that an announcement was around the corner? His tenure as president was a huge disappointment outside of 1 miracle run. This has been his only focus for years now and the project is more unrealistic than it is ambitious.

West Village will not be completed for years. I can't see the city starting a plan like this on the East village until We're almost wrapped up on the west side. So probably 5-10 years before they're ready to entertain the idea of starting to plan and clean up the east village site. The cost of the crowchild upgrade alone would be astronomical. Unless this is tied in with an olympic bid and we get federal funds I can't see it making any sense. By the time all the costs are added up we could easily be looking at a cost of 1.5 billion.

KK has asked the city to supply the land, clean up the land(at an unknown cost), commit an unknown amount to infrastructure and has proposed the cost of the project in today's dollars at what is likely the most optimistic cost projection they could come up with. Essentially we are paying the cost of a new football stadium for them. Why?

I have no interest in committing tax $ to the Stamps. The flames are one thing, at least that's a true professional league. Owners can look to a partnership with the U of C if they want a new football stadium. Asking us to pay for that? C'mon Man!!!

Seems to me that the team could build a new arena at the site of the big 4 without expecting the city to commit silly money for infrastructure, clean up, football stadium... This isn't edm or winnipeg that needs a huge development to add life into our inner city. Stampede grounds are great. No issues with congestion, and the area is already designed for it. We need to spend money around the city on so many infrastructure items, why add this to the pile unnecessarily? The proposed deal is a sweetheart deal for the owners that see's them getting a free football stadium. Let's concentrate on the arena and let them work out the stadium deal with the University using private funds.

[Biyaaaah]

Sorry got my east and west mixed up but I think you guys get the point I'm making...

[corporatejay]

This is what the Flames have done so far:

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by RM14

The Flames only released details on the building and examples of what the surrounding density could look like. All of those details are for the city to determine. For example, KK specifically mentioned that they are not proposing to move any roads here... but, if the City wanted to then I am sure the Flames would have no problem with that. It wouldn't make sense for the Flames to release an official proposed design because it isn't even up to them how the city want's to design and integrate things like Bow Trail, the train, pedestrian bridges, the river, and the surrounding neighborhoods. These are still completely undecided and need a ton of analysis. That's why it's not even "half-baked", the flames are just proposing a place to do the dam baking!

That took 8 years? They couldn't have asked the city?

[jlemire]

Originally Posted by Biyaaaah

This is the best that KK could come up with after telling us at Season Ticket Holder Events since 2007 that an announcement was around the corner? His tenure as president was a huge disappointment outside of 1 miracle run. This has been his only focus for years now and the project is more unrealistic than it is ambitious.

West Village will not be completed for years. I can't see the city starting a plan like this on the East village until We're almost wrapped up on the west side. So probably 5-10 years before they're ready to entertain the idea of starting to plan and clean up the east village site. The cost of the crowchild upgrade alone would be astronomical. Unless this is tied in with an olympic bid and we get federal funds I can't see it making any sense. By the time all the costs are added up we could easily be looking at a cost of 1.5 billion.

KK has asked the city to supply the land, clean up the land(at an unknown cost), commit an unknown amount to infrastructure and has proposed the cost of the project in today's dollars at what is likely the most optimistic cost projection they could come up with. Essentially we are paying the cost of a new football stadium for them. Why?

I have no interest in committing tax $ to the Stamps. The flames are one thing, at least that's a true professional league. Owners can look to a partnership with the U of C if they want a new football stadium. Asking us to pay for that? C'mon Man!!!

Seems to me that the team could build a new arena at the site of the big 4 without expecting the city to commit silly money for infrastructure, clean up, football stadium... This isn't edm or winnipeg that needs a huge development to add life into our inner city. Stampede grounds are great. No issues with congestion, and the area is already designed for it. We need to spend money around the city on so many infrastructure items, why add this to the pile unnecessarily? The proposed deal is a sweetheart deal for the owners that see's them getting a free football stadium. Let's concentrate on the arena and let them work out the stadium deal with the University using private funds.

I will eat Crow if im wrong but there is ZERO chance the new building is on Stampede land.....The 2 corporations have a strong dislike for eachother.

[rayne008]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!! View Post
But seriously, what the **** were the Flames doing all those years they were supposedly working on this project?

I think we all assumed that they were working hand-in-glove with the city, keeping it under wraps and refining the project so that it would be an airtight plan that worked for all parties by the time it saw the light of day.

Instead, after years of behind the scenes work, we see a vague general concept for an arena attached to a football stadium, and a city hall that clearly had no more notion of what was going on than the general public did, and didn't even get the outline of the project until it was announced to the season ticket holders.

For an organization that wants to get into a billion dollar private-public partnership with the city, they sure seem to have half-***ed it pretty hard so far.

I don't even have any huge insurmountable objections to the project that has been laid out so far, but I agree with Nenshi that calling this 'half baked' would be overly generous.

To carry on the metaphor of baking a cake, this project is at the stage of somebody saying "Hey, let's make it a BIG cake!"
I'm not saying I 100% agree with how the release of this project was handled, but it is clear you have no idea the type of back work that goes into creating a concept like this, especially of this magnitude. There were many, many players involved and multiple programming, planning and design schemes, legal ramifications, negotiations, contact talks, etc. before being released.

The South Health Campus, the $1.3B project, was in the planning stages for 10 years before the RFP came out in 2005, and subsequently completed by 2013. That's an 18-year span.

I understand people's expectations and anxiety on the CalgaryNEXT project to get going, but if you knew how the development / engineering / design / construction industry really operate, you wouldn't be surprised at the timelines. Not for a project like this.

Originally Posted by Muta

I'm not saying I 100% agree with how the release of this project was handled, but it is clear you have no idea the type of back work that goes into creating a concept like this, especially of this magnitude. There were many, many players involved and multiple programming, planning and design schemes, legal ramifications, negotiations, contact talks, etc. before being released.

The South Health Campus, the $1.3B project, was in the planning stages for 10 years before the RFP came out in 2005, and subsequently completed by 2013. That's an 18-year span.

I understand people's expectations and anxiety on the CalgaryNEXT project to get going, but if you knew how the development / engineering / design / construction industry really operate, you wouldn't be surprised at the timelines. Not for a project like this.

Although we've come to appreciate you knowledge on these things, especially on the scope of projects this size - I think the sentiment remains that we would have thought the CSEC and the City would have been in talks for years about this project.

To learn they've spent all these years in the planning stages for this project and have yet to have meaningful talks with the city seems borderline incompetent to me.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Muta

Yes, I agree the five-year comment was a bit hasty. KK is not a construction guy, but he's learning. He has to, it's his job now haha.

He's not expected to know the ins and outs of construction but as president in charge of overseeing the entire project he should have a clear grasp of the process, timeline and cost.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by RM14

I would think it's more insulting that they would expect to design City infrastructure with taxpayers dollars

who says it has to be city dollars. Several municipalities have made companies and developers pay for road infrastructure around their developments.


WRT Nenshi's comments. Entirely out of context. I assumed when i saw the headline that he meant half-baked in reference to the Flames being stoned out of their minds. Obviously, in the context, that is not the case.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Barnes

That took 8 years? They couldn't have asked the city?

The idea for the location is not 8 years old. There was a series of event that led to the delay and scope change. Mainly the purchase of the Stampeders in 2012. Not sure if the flood 2 years ago contributed to the delay as well, but likely.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Cappy

who says it has to be city dollars. Several municipalities have made companies and developers pay for road infrastructure around their developments.

The City is planning on redesigning this part of downtown anywho. This idea would mean a decade early or so.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by rayne008

Although we've come to appreciate you knowledge on these things, especially on the scope of projects this size - I think the sentiment remains that we would have thought the CSEC and the City would have been in talks for years about this project.

To learn they've spent all these years in the planning stages for this project and have yet to have meaningful talks with the city seems borderline incompetent to me.

Hard to have real, solid talks with the city about moving forward when a site was only recently selected.

[You Need a Thneed]

Essentially all that the Flames have done, is theorize where they want the building to go, had a few high level renderings done, and come up with a proposed method of paying for the building (for marketting to the public only). Really, that's only a couple of weeks work, at most. I think calling the idea "half baked" is being quite kind.

The Flames saw that the city had a plan for the future for the west village. Then they plunked there building down on the prime land of the area, and assumed that the city would be all supportive of the idea, and would have no issues with how the area works. Really, they did less than that, since the city's plan has roads moving, and the Flames have left roads unmoved.

The Flames want $200 million from a CRL - however, the CRL would also have to include the costs of cleanup, building and moving roads, + all of the rest of the infrastructure upgrades. That leaves the CRL at at least $500 million, but the arena/stadium itself has taken up ALL of the best land that might make a CRL work.

Did the Flames ownership spend time trying to collect the neccessary land? - No, the don't want to own the land.

Knowing that their plan was to have the city retain ownership of the land, did they talk to the city to try and work together to make a plan that would work for everyone? - No, apparently not, since basically none of the concerns the city might have have been addressed.

Did the Flames Ownership ask the city if they could get cleanup quotes for the land? - No, they say they researched it and "think it costs much less than everyone is speculating".

Did they work with the city to see what their needs for a feildhouse would be? - It doesn't sound like it.


Ultimately, I think the project that goes ahead will be beautiful, and state of the art. I have no problems with the owner supplied share, the ticket tax, or the city redirecting money from a feildhouse to this complex (provided that it meets the needs of the city's hopes for said fieldhouse). The CRL portion is where the whole model breaks down. The east village CRL seems to be working great, but the whole CRL is MUCH less than the total of what this West Village CRL would have to be. And for the east village CRL, the city convieniently included the land that the Bow Tower was taking up, giving the East Village an "anchor tenant" - essentially ensuring that the East village CRL would work. The West village CRL would have no such anchor, and the complex would take up the majority, and best portion of the lands in question, all while paying no Property Tax, since it would be owned by the city.

In short, the Flames ownership is going to have to put another half billion of their own funds or so to make this plan work. They should probably start working on assembling the land for themselves, while working with the city on figuring out where the city wants to move the roads to, and how to transfer the lands required to make that happen. That way, the Flames take all the risk on the cleanup, if they are so sure it can be done cheaply, they shouldn't have any issue with this, and perhaps could get a deal from the city on the land.

Also, if the city puts in $200 million for the feildhouse, the city should get all control and revenue from the feildhouse part (except for Stamps games, or something like that).

[Muta]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Essentially all that the Flames have done, is theorize where they want the building to go, had a few high level renderings done, and come up with a proposed method of paying for the building (for marketting to the public only). Really, that's only a couple of weeks work, at most. I think calling the idea "half baked" is being quite kind.

Wow.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by Muta

I'm not saying I 100% agree with how the release of this project was handled, but it is clear you have no idea the type of back work that goes into creating a concept like this, especially of this magnitude. There were many, many players involved and multiple programming, planning and design schemes, legal ramifications, negotiations, contact talks, etc. before being released.

The South Health Campus, the $1.3B project, was in the planning stages for 10 years before the RFP came out in 2005, and subsequently completed by 2013. That's an 18-year span.

I understand people's expectations and anxiety on the CalgaryNEXT project to get going, but if you knew how the development / engineering / design / construction industry really operate, you wouldn't be surprised at the timelines. Not for a project like this.

This is exactly the kind of work I would EXPECT to happen behind the scenes.

I've only been involved in one construction planning project (coincidentally though, it was for a small hockey rink). So I make no claim to any expertise. But before we could even get off the ground, we needed environmental impact assessment, energy usage estimates, parking layouts, traffic remediation studies, plans for how we were going to integrate traffic into the city's upcoming metro project, etc, etc, etc. And that was for only a 50 seat rink, on a pre-existing commercial site. I get that there is a lot of legwork.

Which is why it seems very odd that the Flames are most of a decade into a billion dollar project, and they're at the stage of "We want to put a stadium in the west village." Massive environmental remediation project which will cost hundreds of millions of dollars? Not part of the plan yet. Parking for tens of thousands of people? No parking. Infrastructure impact of dropping an 80,000 person facility into the downtown of a major city? They don't anticipate any infrastructure impact. Does the city even want an arena, which will cost them hundreds of millions of dollars, be built on city land, be under their ownership, and have significant property tax implications? Don't know, we haven't really asked them yet.

18 years seems like a perfectly reasonable time frame to me for a project this big. But we're still at the stage of not even knowing whether the proposed owner actually wants to own it.

I wasn't expect all the i's to be dotted and t's crossed. But I was expecting an announcement about how the City and the Flames are hoping to get a new arena built, and what the scope of it is, and that they are working together towards an agreement based on some proposed framework which they've been hammering out for several years. Not "Here's a vague idea, it'll cost about a billion dollars but we don't have any realistic cost estimates yet. There is no Plan B, so take it or leave it", with the mayor's office replying "There's no money for this, it's not in our plans, and we're not committing to anything".

Maybe the Flames have done all this legwork, and are just keeping it close to the vest for negotiating purposes, but Nenshi pretty explicitly said: "This project was announced, frankly, without all of the homework being done". Which is the view from where I sit too. And it's pretty clear that the city did not have a major hand in the concept either.