Bob Hartley and the Coaching Staff Thread

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by adc

Then why does no team in the NHL want him to play for their team?

Is everyone in the NHL just that clueless and has been that clueless multiple times?

Some teams don't need that kind of player in their system.

The LA Kings don't need any speed, their game is about dumping the puck and then taking it away and never giving it back. They have the horses for that up and down their lineup.

Some teams already have that sort of speedy bottom 6er in their system. The Anaheim Ducks have Andrew Cogliano and the Edmonton Oilers have Lauri Korpikoski.

Some teams have dumb GMs. The Vancouver Canucks thought adding Brandon Prust was more important than improving as a team.

Some teams are just leaving a whole bunch of roster spots open for youngsters and aren't looking to add any veterans at all. The Arizona Coyotes are built to win Auston Matthews.

What do the Flames have in our bottom 6? Bollig(ugh).. Jones... Raymond (ugh)... Stajan... Colborne... Jooris (who's similar, but not really)... Ferland...

Our bottom 6 is pretty slow and it's not a Kings style group that can just play keep away all game (that includes Colborne, who gives the mirage of being able to protect the puck but really doesn't do a whole lot in that respect and spends most of his time away from the puck). Maybe Treliving wants the Flames to be the Kings and not the Flames, well he has his work cut out for him as it starts in the top 6 and requires a total roster makeover.

But for the Flames to be the Flames, Byron was a key piece in that as he filled a lot of holes (speed through the neutral zone, ability to take away the puck in the defensive zone, an even better forechecker than Frolik) that are now holes again. And we're seeing those holes. Can you fill the holes in different ways? Sure. But we had Paul Byron and decided to create the holes..

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

In the last 15 years or so, we have really only had 3 forwards that could gain the zone and distribute the puck, and one of them was a cancer (Tanguay). The other two - Huselius and Gaudreau. I think Brodie is a defenseman that can do the same thing. Have to come up with a system that takes advantage of those players we do have, and find more. Detroit plays a possession game, and they keep finding guys that fit that mold - we all thought they'd die when Datsyuk and Zetterberg retired, but Nyquist and Larkin seem to be able to carry the torch. I don't pay that much attention to Detroit, so there may be others in the system.
Anyhow, I digress. We shall see if Hartley is capable of adjusting to the adjustment. The really great coaches can continue to adapt. I don't think he is a "great" coach, but he surprised me once already...

Yeah I'm not the biggest Hartley fan but last season he did a phenomenal job getting this team to play to it's few strengths so he's earned at least some benefit of the doubt that he can get things back together. If he can't it's possible we see a new head coach in the offseason but IMO he deserves the full season to right the ship.

[Flamesforver11]

Flames were lucky last season from an advanced stat POV, but this year we are actually unlucky (PDO wise) and near the bottom. Well get the bounces soon enough, no worries

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by codynw

Hiller, Ramo, Hudler, Jones and Russell are all coming off the books at the end of this year. Next year is Raymond, Bollig, Wideman, Smid and Engelland.

None of these deals are handcuffing the team financially. The team isn't stuck with a Clarkson like abomination.

Further to this point:

Hiller: $4.5M
Ramo: $3.8M
Jones: $4M (Seriously, Colorado. Seriously)
Russell: $2.6M
Hudler: $4M (High five, Feaster)

$18.9M off the books right there. You either let Russell walk because you have Wideman for another year, or you extend Russell and trade Wideman. Can't have both going into next year.

Raymond: $3.15M
Bollig: $1.25M (Ugh is right)
Wideman: $5.25M
Smid: $3.5M
Engelland: $2.9M

$16.05M is set to expire, but I don't think anyone should be surprised if Engelland/Smid are bought out this summer. Engelland will cost 916K against the cap for two seasons, Smid is a worse - $1.2M over four years. I think you have to buy Engelland out, bite the bullet on Smid (If that's how they choose to go).

One way or another, we have $35M in expiring contracts in the next two years. Brad's got this.

[FiveSeven]

Engelland - If my memory serves me correctly, didn't we need him to reach the cap floor? I swear I remember hearing how we had to overpay someone so it was him. Hardly brads fault and truly hasn't been as bad as some say.

Bollig - Pretty much useless, hoping he could play as good or better then when he was with the Hawks but nope. Minor mistake.

Raymond - Started off the first season on fire and then got injured and hasn't been the same since. Hometown guy, safe to say everyone was expecting more with him being a speedy sniper coming home. Really he let us down more so than Brad. Only 3 years regardless.

Hamilton - You make that trade 10/10 times. He needs time and has some of BEST defensemen to mentor him which even he eluded to being needed and beneficial.

Ramo - We kind of needed him as assurance and even though
He is waived he is still assurance. If Hiller gets hurt were not running with two rookie goalies...not that it's starting to matter. Cap doesn't matter on a one year deal.

Byron - Who cares?

Extensions - Enough money will be coming off the books to solve our issues without a trade. Most likely a trade will occur though.

I don't think anyone should be fired. It's the players. The system isn't based on purely one style. Hartley does adapt, the players need to execute. It's not like we're the only team who runs our system. Sometimes it's not as simple as being read or countered it's about imposing your system through good execution. Lack of execution will make any system look ineffective.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by FiveSeven

I don't think anyone should be fired. It's the players. The system isn't based on purely one style. Hartley does adapt, the players need to execute. It's not like we're the only team who runs our system. Sometimes it's not as simple as being read or countered it's about imposing your system through good execution. Lack of execution will make any system look ineffective.

Hard to say if it's the players not executing or the coach not making the proper adjustments and teaching properly. It's probably both tbh.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by adc

Then why does no team in the NHL want him to play for their team?

Is everyone in the NHL just that clueless and has been that clueless multiple times?

A lot of good players get passed over on waivers at the beginning of the season. The fact someone picked him up shows that he has value. 99% of the time players are passed over when on waivers. Byron is an NHler and it doesn't shock me that a team that's unbeaten doesn't want to mess with chemistry so he's sitting out.

Also would not be shocked if he's put back on waivers and the Flames pick him up.

[polak]

It's the coaches job to get the players to buy in though.

Sure it's a really bad thing if a team tunes out the coach, but that's the #1 thing a coach cannot allow to happen.

With how bad this team is playing, I think you point the finger at Goaltending first, then coaching right after. It's not one area where they're lacking and the players need to step it up, they're in total shambles.

[FiveSeven]

Originally Posted by heep223

Hard to say if it's the players not executing or the coach not making the proper adjustments and teaching properly. It's probably both tbh.

Yeah, I agree with that. It's like we're stuck in a strange place right now with the injuries. We're not good at all on the dump and forecheck. We're not overall skilled enough to carry the play and actually get set up. Our stretch passes are usually covered and end up turning into a tip and chase or a turnover. We have a couple star players but everyone else is just too average.

[adc]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

A lot of good players get passed over on waivers at the beginning of the season. The fact someone picked him up shows that he has value. 99% of the time players are passed over when on waivers. Byron is an NHler and it doesn't shock me that a team that's unbeaten doesn't want to mess with chemistry so he's sitting out.

Also would not be shocked if he's put back on waivers and the Flames pick him up.

A lot of GOOD players? Really?

Seems like a lot of marginal players get passed on waivers and occassionally guys can improve and turn their game around, but the vast majority of guys that are on waivers are not good players and are both on and passed on for a reason.

And again if Paul Byron is an NHLer why is he not playing in the NHL and why do teams keep passing when they have a free shot at picking him up? If the answer they already have guys like him then maybe it is time to evaluate if he is really an NHLer.

[Gaskal]

I thought I’d spend some time to analyze the Flames breakout and zone entry strategy that seems to have been figured out by NHL scouts around the league. IMO it’s one of the bigger culprits that have a hand in the team’s scoring, and vis a vis their confidence and swagger. So far, the effort is now there. The goaltending (kinda) is now there. What isn’t there yet is Hartley’s adjustments to how other teams have started playing the Flames. The zone entries, scoring and confidence will return when he does.

The stretch pass / defenceman carry has been figured out. Hartley’s strategy is to either have a forward tip it in with some speed, or have the defenceman carry over the center line and dump it in, chasing it himself.

The counter to that: a proper neutral zone trap.

An opposing center and another winger would be taking away the middle of the ice, the first forward being there to take away the center ice pass and force the puck up the boards.


If the D to D pass gets off instead, the opposite forward circles in to pressure.

This forces the puck-mover to try to find an opening in the neutral zone for a stretch pass or a tip in.

More often than not, they would have to go for the tip in - but in the Flames case, none of the forwards have the neutral zone speed to beat out the one ‘safe’ defender to the puck on a dump in.

If you take a look at the successful zone entries we’ve had, they’re either a result of the opponent getting impatient and losing their man, or being backed off due to high speed through the neutral zone.

(Capitals have the long change, so they have to play the rush much more conservatively.)


The neutral zone trap is designed to completely slow down the play in that zone, forcing the dump in which the lone defender can beat to. The workaround to that is to have a forward tip in a breaking defenceman’s pass, but another forward has to have enough speed to beat the opposing defender back.

Nowadays, either the forward’s stick is lifted and we ice the puck (very often) or someone tries to stickhandle through the center of the ice and loses it (also very often).




Which leads me to the proposed fix so meticulously outlined in that article.

Instead of dump & tip-in or try to stickhandle through a team standing strong across the blue line, you have to tell the Flames to feed the puck back to the defender and have the forwards circle back to regroup and pick up speed again. If the opponents prevent the zone entry again, simply keep circling back and play keep -away until the other team loses both their patience and their man.

In this image, the Lightning are set up in their standard 1-3-1 while the Caps are patiently regrouping. The Caps are so patient, in fact, that Tampa starts to break their scheme.

The Caps' patience forces Adam Hall (18) to pressure the puck. Mike Green just calmly passes over to Jeff Schultz, and Dana Tyrell (42) chases the puck, which means that the 1-3-1 is now an out of position 2-2-1. This leaves a huge gap on the right hand side of the rink and Matt Hendricks (26) smartly fills it.

This style of playing with the puck was mentioned by Giordano in his post-game interview after the Red Wings game as well.

[polak]

Yeah funny you mention that. I was thinking the same thing watching the game yesterday. There was a play where I think Hudler was going to stick handle it in last night and saw no way in so he passed back to the D who just dumped it in like a complete idiot and wasted the opportunity instead of trying to regroup and trying the zone entry again. That was the specific moment I started really doubting the coaching.

The Flames seem to only try things once. They never back up and try it again. Not just zone entries. They force shots and hit the opposing D or miss, they try to push the puck in the direction of a team mate regardless of whether or not the pass is there, they try to force wrap arounds or try to cut in front of the net instead of turning back and looking for another option from behind the net and yeah, they force the zone entry.

[Stay Golden]

The Flames are dumping and chasing alot this early season but they are not a dump and chase built type of team. Their success last season came from puck posession. At least how they generated their offence.
The biggest question everyone wants to know is did Hartley change the breakout system on the D. They sure seem to be trying to stretch pass more often then skating it out and creating the rush.
It would appear that Hartley changed the system that wasn't broken.
What i can't figure out is Gio, Russell, Wideman and Engelland all knew Hartley's system and now with Hamilton and Smid they are all way out of sync.
Hartley had to have changed the system, combine that with really half hearted full 60 minutes. The Flames thus far are jmo giving 15 min of full effort out of 60 and magically expecting this to pay off.

[Frank MetaMusil]

It's amusing the way this discussion has gone.

No comments about the "core" underachieving, no captain "refusing" to play the coaches system, etc etc.

I know some people think Gio is this amazing leader, but this start is largely his fault as well. Brent Sutter flew under the radar for a plethora of shortcomings. It was Iginla and "friends" leading some sort of mutiny (or however that narrative went)

Hartley will fix his system issues, he's not stubborn enough to keep forcing things or defensive pairings that don't obviously work.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

It's amusing the way this discussion has gone.

No comments about the "core" underachieving, no captain "refusing" to play the coaches system, etc etc.

I know some people think Gio is this amazing leader, but this start is largely his fault as well...

I agree that Giordano's play has been a contributing factor, but your somewhat cryptic but not so veiled comparison to the B.Sutter coached and Iginla captained Flames has me very curious about what it is exactly you are implying. Do you think that Giordano is leading a locker room mutiny?

That strikes me as bizarre.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I agree that Giordano's play has been a contributing factor, but your somewhat cryptic but not so veiled comparison to the B.Sutter coached and Iginla captained Flames has me very curious about what it is exactly you are implying. Do you think that Giordano is leading a locker room mutiny?

That strikes me as bizarre.

Frank hates Brent Sutter so I think that is an attempt to take a shot at Sutter not Giordano.

[Larry David]

Originally Posted by adc

Frank hates Brent Sutter so I think that is an attempt to take a shot at Sutter not Giordano.

We're on season four since Brent was the head coach. Time to let it go...

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I agree that Giordano's play has been a contributing factor, but your somewhat cryptic but not so veiled comparison to the B.Sutter coached and Iginla captained Flames has me very curious about what it is exactly you are implying. Do you think that Giordano is leading a locker room mutiny?

That strikes me as bizarre.

Pretty sure he's just saying that Iginla took an unfair share of the blame in his latter years with the Flames and that no one player is the solution or the fault.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by adc

Frank hates Brent Sutter so I think that is an attempt to take a shot at Sutter not Giordano.

Well, in all honesty I do think Hartley should switch up systems based on the opponent and the situation in game.

I also don't think Gio is leading a mutiny, but he's the captain of this tire fire on the ice. I think he got far too much credit for the Flames run last season while not even playing.

Ultimately, results matter though, and Hartley got the team to a place it hadn't been in 10 years. If I'm Treliving I let the guy finish coaching his contract.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by adc

Frank hates Brent Sutter so I think that is an attempt to take a shot at Sutter not Giordano.

And you know this how?