Nenshi stance on wearing the niqab

[pgsieve]

Without going into how I feel about the whole thing, I thought I'd share an interesting story for me today. I work for a post-secondary where I travel to talk to students about studying at my school in Canada. I'm currently in the Middle East and the Canadian election and specifically the niqab is all over all the local media here. For the first time in five years I had multiple students (and I've never heard this before) say to me.. "Not interested in Canada.. I am obviously not welcome" ... I am still taken back by this. I've recruited on almost every continent and I have never heard a student and I have never heard anything like this. As much as people say it is a non-issue, it was clear to me today that it has global implications

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by pgsieve

For the first time in five years I had multiple students (and I've never heard this before) say to me.. "Not interested in Canada.. I am obviously not welcome" ... I am still taken back by this.

They are entitled to their opinion. But I would consider it quite rude to say it in you face knowing that you are Canadian. And obviously that's why they are saying it to you.

And I failed to see how this is a big issue overseas. It's merely a discussion. The niqab is not banned and in fact allowed during the citizenship ceremony. And your students don't like that?

[Huntingwhale]

Meh, their loss. If the Nijab debate is such a big controversy over there and is the deciding factor in them not wanting to come to Canada, then all the power to them. Global implications? If the Nijab is Canada's biggest discussion of controversy overseas, our country is in pretty decent shape.

[pgsieve]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Meh, their loss. If the Nijab debate is such a big controversy over there and is the deciding factor in them not wanting to come to Canada, then all the power to them. Global implications? If the Nijab is Canada's biggest discussion of controversy overseas, our country is in pretty decent shape.

I definitely see your point, I think for me it was more about a broader idea that for the first time Canada was seen as not the welcoming place that is usually described. I think they were asking genuinely, and we had some great dialogue about it as well. It is hard to describe the feeling I had from the conversation... I didn't mean "global implications" meant that they would stop trading or something big. Just more that the issue is being heard and felt beyond our yard, and it was the first time I had heard anything other than "Canada is wonderful" in five years.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by darklord700

They are entitled to their opinion. But I would consider it quite rude to say it in you face knowing that you are Canadian. And obviously that's why they are saying it to you.

And I failed to see how this is a big issue overseas. It's merely a discussion. The niqab is not banned and in fact allowed during the citizenship ceremony. And your students don't like that?

It's not rude if it's true.

And it's about a lot more than the niqab ban. Harper's Conversatives are unrelentingly anti-Muslim (and unwaveringly pro-Israel). This doesn't go unnoticed.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

It's not rude if it's true.

What is true? That you can't have a discussion on niqab? What transpired on this discuss in Canada is a very civilized.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

It's not rude if it's true.

And it's about a lot more than the niqab ban. Harper's Conversatives are unrelentingly anti-Muslim (and unwaveringly pro-Israel). This doesn't go unnoticed.

My brother's had the same experience in China over the past several years (i.e. receiving negative comments and questions about Canada) and I've talked to a couple of acquaintances who've traveled overseas and had similar interactions.

Our international reputation has been damaged over the past several years and the niqab thing is just one more log on a smoldering fire.

Whether that's going to amount to anything consequential for anyone but expats and backpackers remains to be seen, but it's probably not a good thing that our country doesn't have quite the sterling image we imagine it does.

[nik-]

I've thought a lot about this issue, and it's been a struggle for me. As a generally liberal person, I've had a hard time reconciling with myself why I dislike this symbol so much and why I'm pretty on board with this whole thing. In the end, what I think it comes down to for me, is just because it's part of some culture, doesn't mean I have to respect it and doesn't mean it's ok. I don't see this as Islam thing, I see it as an oppression thing and just because it's "technically" a choice, it's a choice birthed in a flawed education. At the risk of Godwinning this thread, we didn't allow children born and educated in the Third Reich to continue along the paths they were educated in even though it would have technically been their choice. They were re-educated because their education and culture was ####ty. "Cover up because men are ####ing animals and you mustn't tempt them". Yeah, sorry, that's not something I need to respect. Just like I don't need to respect women being forbidden to drive. It's just a ####ty message and I don't feel it meshes with the Canadian tapestry.

I don't feel my stance is anti-islam, or racist. I do feel that there's this insane liberal hypocrisy around this, where people champion women's rights and then just pretend this is totally their choice. It's just indoctrination.

If someone doesn't want to come here because people don't like the niqab, we'll be ok, and so will the people from dozens of different cultures and religions that already have good lives here.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by pgsieve

I definitely see your point, I think for me it was more about a broader idea that for the first time Canada was seen as not the welcoming place that is usually described. I think they were asking genuinely, and we had some great dialogue about it as well. It is hard to describe the feeling I had from the conversation... I didn't mean "global implications" meant that they would stop trading or something big. Just more that the issue is being heard and felt beyond our yard, and it was the first time I had heard anything other than "Canada is wonderful" in five years.

I wouldn't say it's common or anything, but there's definitely a growing sentiment in the international community.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by darklord700

What is true? That you can't have a discussion on niqab? What transpired on this discuss in Canada is a very civilized.

It's true that Muslims that might once have chosen to emigrate to Canada no longer feel they would be welcome.

And as I stated in my amended post, it isn't the niqab debate that makes them feel unwelcome.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

I've thought a lot about this issue, and it's been a struggle for me. As a generally liberal person, I've had a hard time reconciling with myself why I dislike this symbol so much and why I'm pretty on board with this whole thing. In the end, what I think it comes down to for me, is just because it's part of some culture, doesn't mean I have to respect it and doesn't mean it's ok. I don't see this as Islam thing, I see it as an oppression thing and just because it's "technically" a choice, it's a choice birthed in a flawed culture. At the risk of Godwinning this thread, we didn't allow children born and educated in the Third Reich to continue along the paths they were educated in even though it would have technically been their choice. They were re-educated because their education and culture was ####ty. "Cover up because men are ####ing animals and you mustn't tempt them". Yeah, sorry, that's not something I need to respect. Just like I don't need to respect women being forbidden to drive. It's just a ####ty message and I don't feel it meshes with the Canadian tapestry.

I don't feel my stance is anti-islam, or racist. I do feel that there's this insane liberal hypocrisy around this, where people champion women's rights and then just pretend this is totally their choice. It's just indoctrination.

If someone doesn't want to come here because people don't like the niqab, we'll be ok, and so will the people from dozens of different cultures and religions that already have good lives here.

Except that telling women to cover-up or be modest is hardly exclusive to Islam. It seems like we're perfectly fine with the other ways in which this idea manifests itself in our society, so taking a stand against this particular manifestation seems kinda racist. This woman has also stated that it his her personal choice, so even if you disagree with her reasons for that choice, it boils down to men telling women what they can and can't wear.

EDIT: That's not to say that you have to respect the culture, or that attempts shouldn't be made to educate/re-educate but actually telling someone what they can and can't wear, in a situation that affects no one but the person wearing the niqab, crosses a boundary for me.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Except that telling women to cover-up or be modest is hardly exclusive to Islam. It seems like we're perfectly fine with the other ways in which this idea manifests itself in our society, so taking a stand against this particular manifestation seems kinda racist. This woman has also stated that it his her personal choice, so even if you disagree with her reasons for that choice, it boils down to men telling women what they can and can't wear.

Perfect, thank you. "Boils down to men telling women what they can and can't wear" by not wanting them to wear what their male dominated religion has drilled into them from childhood.

Thank you for adding an example for my comment on liberal hypocrisy.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Rubecube, you have totally lost the plot on this ethically speaking.

Originally Posted by rubecube

Except that telling women to cover-up or be modest is hardly exclusive to Islam.

Certainly not. Though it manifests itself in more extreme ways in many Islam-majority countries.

It seems like we're perfectly fine with the other ways in which this idea manifests itself in our society,

No we aren't. Aren't you the first to stand against slut-shaming? Rightly so. This is a far more patriarchical incarnation, of course - not all "women should be modest" ideas or implementations thereof are equal. Some result in conservative people thinking less of a girl for wearing a miniskirt, others involve burning said girl alive.

so taking a stand against this particular manifestation seems kinda racist.

Totally off the rails here. Islam is a set of ideas, not a race. It's also a religion practiced by 1.6 billion people from very different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. Even classifying this as a race issue is inherently racist. It implies you think that Islam = brown people.

This woman has also stated that it his her personal choice, so even if you disagree with her reasons for that choice, it boils down to men telling women what they can and can't wear.

First of all, if a woman wants to wear a veil freely, that is her choice and no one in Canada should be permitted to stop her from doing so - subject to such limits as are appropriate in a democratic society (e.g. can't wear it in your driver's license photo or passport photo for ID reasons; if she gets arrested, she can't wear it in her mugshot). However, disagreeing with her choice is not the same as telling her what she can't wear, any more than you saying "you're an ####### if you wear a confederate flag shirt" is telling some guy he can't wear a confederate flag shirt. Sure he can, you just disagree with his beliefs, or at least what the flag stands for. Again, rightly so.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by nik-

Perfect, thank you. "Boils down to men telling women what they can and can't wear" by not wanting them to wear what their male dominated religion has drilled into them from childhood.

Thank you for adding an example for my comment on liberal hypocrisy.

Your either actively against every injustice or you're a hypocrite!

Typical conservative rationalization

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

Perfect, thank you. "Boils down to men telling women what they can and can't wear" by not wanting them to wear what their male dominated religion has drilled into them from childhood.

Thank you for adding an example for my comment on liberal hypocrisy.

How is it hypocritical? I don't believe men have a right to tell women what they can and can't wear. I agree that wanting to wear the niqab is a result of heavily ingrained, cultural, and patriarchal dominance, and it should be named as such. We've named it, and I'm sure this woman has heard all the arguments against it. If she still wants to wear it, then that's her choice.

If that's hypocritical, then what is arguing in favour particular personal freedoms except when they manifest themselves in a nature you disagree with?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Your either actively against every injustice or you're a hypocrite!

Typical conservative rationalization

haha what?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by rubecube

How is it hypocritical? I don't believe men have a right to tell women what they can and can't wear. I agree that wanting to wear the niqab is a result of heavily ingrained, cultural, and patriarchal dominance, and it should be named as such. We've named it, and I'm sure this woman has heard all the arguments against it. If she still wants to wear it, then that's her choice.

If that's hypocritical, then what is arguing in favour particular personal freedoms except when they manifest themselves in a nature you disagree with?

I feel it's hypocritical because it's arguing for the protection of something that should never be argued for by someone who holds liberal values. I hold liberal values and I find it odd that this #### just totally gets a pass. And beyond getting a pass, it gets championed.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by nik-

I feel it's hypocritical because it's arguing for the protection of something that should never be argued for by someone who holds liberal values. I hold liberal values and I find it odd that this #### just totally gets a pass. And beyond getting a pass, it gets championed.

I don't think he's championing it.

And it's basically the most liberal principle possible to say that no one should infringe upon someone's right to express whatever values they themselves want to even if you think they're wrong or even evil. Otherwise you can't discuss them and demonstrate why they're wrong or evil.

That's some JS Mill right there, brother.

[nik-]

I don't think rube is championing it, but a lot of people do.

Like I said in my original post, this is something that I struggled with because in general forbidding something that's not physically hurting someone goes against the core of my beliefs. I just find the whole debate around it ironic.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

My brother's had the same experience in China over the past several years (i.e. receiving negative comments and questions about Canada) and I've talked to a couple of acquaintances who've traveled overseas and had similar interactions.

Our international reputation has been damaged over the past several years and the niqab thing is just one more log on a smoldering fire.

I wouldn't worry much about our country's reputation among autocracies. And I'd like to know which Western countries are held in high regard among people in Saudi Arabia and China. France? Not with the ban in the hijab. Ditto the Netherlands. The UK? Not with the Conservatives' policy and comments on immigration. Australia? They intern illegal immigrants. The U.S? Don't be ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Your either actively against every injustice or you're a hypocrite!

It's perfectly valid to question why conservative Christians are routinely called out by Western progressives for their backward and intolerant credos, while ultra-conservative non-Christians get a free pass. Identity politics fosters some peculiar double-standards.