Layton/NDP wants Canada to pull out of Afghanistan

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

What exactly do you mean by significant?

These WWII comparisons have always kind of baffled me. I'm no historian, but I'm pretty sure the original "Axis of Evil" actually had a chance of winning the war. You don't really believe that these ######s have a chance of taking over the world and converting us all to Islam, do you?

I don't know anyone has been drafted, I don't know anyone who is hoarding their sugar or rationing eggs and last I heard a major world capital (such as Berlin, Rome, Paris) wasn't under the direct control of the fascists you've mentioned.

To equal the death toll of WWII, an event like 9/11 (the worst day by far of the current "war") would have to happen every single day for the next 60 years.

You notice that I did not mention death toll. I said a threat to the continuation of the western way of life. Over a long term, yes I do think that the threat is as significant, albeit not as acute at this time. I do think that we are having a clash of civilizations and I also feel that is one of the reasons why we are in Afghanistan now and why it is important that we remain. There is a power shift going on now, the USA will not be as powerful as it is now at anytime in the future. We have to manage this power shift as it goes to the next power brokers. We have to make sure that those new power brokers are compatible with our values.

You will have to think a little bigger and get away from the 'sugar rations' if you are going to be able to have a serious discussion about it.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by White Doors

You notice that I did not mention death toll. I said a threat to the continuation of the western way of life. Over a long term, yes I do think that the threat is as significant, albeit not as acute at this time. I do think that we are having a clash of civilizations and I also feel that is one of the reasons why we are in Afghanistan now and why it is important that we remain. There is a power shift going on now, the USA will not be as powerful as it is now at anytime in the future. We have to manage this power shift as it goes to the next power brokers. We have to make sure that those new power brokers are compatible with our values.

You will have to think a little bigger and get away from the 'sugar rations' if you are going to be able to have a serious discussion about it.

What a load of mumbo-jumbo. Manage the power shift as it goes to the next power brokers? Are you writing a brochure?

You appear to be saying that you actually believe that this tiny bunch of morons are a threat to take over the world? You actually think that can happen in reality? You think in our lifetime it is even remotely possible that "the Western world" that we live in is under an actual real threat to be converted to Islam and forced to live under some crazy rules that these guys put together?

You must not have much faith in our "civilization" if you think a ragtag bunch of disorganized loons are a serious threat to destroy it in just a few decades. If you do believe it, what the hell are you doing wasting your time in here? If I believed that my life or my way of life -- my job, "religion", beliefs, worldly posessions, freedom -- were under a tangible threat, I'd join the military and actually do something about it. I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time discussing it on the internet.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by White Doors

If a significant proportion of the world's populaiton is willing to kill civilians of the west, then that will present a threat to our civilization on par with WW2. This is my opinion of course. I'm saying this with the full realization that WW2 was a grave threat to western standards of human rights and democacy. Of course if this does unfold it will be over a much greater period of time than WW2.

I hope I kept the 'rhetoric' out of it for you this time.
I'm still wondering if you want to debate or are trolling.

Fair question. I certainly wasn't intending to be trolling. Your initial statement struck me as odd and rather than attack you for it, I wanted to understand exactly what you meant.

You talk about the threat to the western way of life, but if our effort to protect our way of life results in the death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians in another country, I don't think that's a good trade off. Depends in part how one qualifies 'way of life': some things are sacred, like our right to democracy, free-press, etc.; some things aren't, like our right to bring beverages onto a plane, or to pay the lowest possible amount for gas. Personally, I have more of a fear of our own governments restricting those sacred values than of Islam extremists taking over our nation and taking those things from us.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by White Doors

I said a threat to the continuation of the western way of life. Over a long term, yes I do think that the threat is as significant, albeit not as acute at this time. I do think that we are having a clash of civilizations and I also feel that is one of the reasons why we are in Afghanistan now and why it is important that we remain.

What an idiotic statement. Almost as bad as suggesting a significant number of the world's Muslim's want to kill westerners. Have you ever ventured out of your cocoon? The number of Muslims who want to kill western civilians is probably .0000000000000001%. No wait, that's far too high.

I've worked in Yemen, Egypt, Azerbaijan, Kyrgryzstan and Kazakhstan - all Muslim countries. The people I've met are genuine people, and much more tolerant of my culture and my values than you are of theirs. Certainly not the zealots you like to paint all Muslims as.

There is no clash of civilizations occuring. There are a few Islamist whackos stirring **** up, largely by converting poor and uneducated people to their cause by demonizing the West in the same manner you demonize the Muslim world.

If a fraction of the money spent on 'fighting the war on terrorism' was spent on education and improving the economic conditions for desperately poor people, Muslim or otherwise, we wouldn't have a fraction of the problems we now have.

Edit: Educated, financially secure people, as a rule, don't fight in wars.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

What an idiotic statement. Almost as bad as suggesting a significant number of the world's Muslim's want to kill westerners. Have you ever ventured out of your cocoon? The number of Muslims who want to kill western civilians is probably .0000000000000001%. No wait, that's far too high.

I've worked in Yemen, Egypt, Azerbaijan, Kyrgryzstan and Kazakhstan - all Muslim countries. The people I've met are genuine people, and much more tolerant of my culture and my values than you are of theirs. Certainly not the zealots you like to paint all Muslims as.

There is no clash of civilizations occuring. There are a few Islamist whackos stirring **** up, largely by converting poor and uneducated people to their cause by demonizing the West in the same manner you demonize the Muslim world.

If a fraction of the money spent on 'fighting the war on terrorism' was spent on education and improving the economic conditions for desperately poor people, Muslim or otherwise, we wouldn't have a fraction of the problems we now have.

Edit: Educated, financially secure people, as a rule, don't fight in wars.

great post, especially the last part. It's amazing how little understanding exists when such great potential for its spread also exists. But how do you increase understanding and education?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

great post, especially the last part. It's amazing how little understanding exists when such great potential for its spread also exists. But how do you increase understanding and education?

Blast Western-inspired satellite television to every corner of the globe. Sooner or later everyone will convert. Iran has the most satellite dishes (per capita) in the world, I believe, and they watch Western media all the time.

I figure we should just drop a few million tv sets on the place, then set up some Afghan specific content (radio-free Afghanistan or something?) and just start showing them Braveheart and Dude Where's My Car over and over. Eventually you'll find them walking and talking just like us. Cultural domination has a much better chance of winning (imo) than military domination. Not that either are 'good' things...

[MatsNaslund]

Afghanistan's present-day government is a mere puppet of the US. There is nothing democratic about it. The majority of people are Pashtuns but most of the government is from other groups. In the last few decades, Afghanistan has always been ruled by warlords with their own private armies and areas of influence. Most of these warlords are involved in the drug trade and smuggling. A Prime Example is Rashid Dostum (an ethnic Uzbek), who last time I checked was the unelected Minister of Defence. He is one of the main warlords. Why is he a minister? Well the US was too chicken$hit to actually fight him and his militia to disarm him. He is not the only one. There are several other powerful warlords in the Government.
The Taliban did do a few good things for the people too while they were in power. One of the things was they stopped the practice of Men preying on young boys for sex by keeping them as sex slaves. Since the Taliban were removed from power that practice has come back.

Another thing to be noted is that outside of Kabul the puppet government has no control. That is where either Taliban or the Warlords (aligned with puppet government) have control.

Dialogue with the Taliban will eventually be needed and here's why:
Afghanistan's main ethnic group are the Pashtuns. Taliban is comprised entirely of Pastuns. Aside from the President's position (Hamid Karzai) everyone in the puppet government setup by the US are non-Pashtuns (uzbeks,tajik,hazaras,etc.). Pashtuns are the 2nd largest ethnic group in Pakistan too and they are located all along the loosely enforced Pakistan-Afghanistan border. When people in Afghainstan (especially Pashtuns) see Westerners in their country they immediately think of Imperialism. This country was in a war with the Soviets throughout the 80s and eventually it was the Soviets and not the Pashtuns that withdrew. The Pashtun fighters would capture Soviets by offering them and getting them hooked on drugs and then killing them and then removing the skin off the body. These Pashtuns are some of the best fighters that Canadian Army will ever see in hand to hand combat and they know their terrain a lot better than then the Canadians. Before the Soviets, many others tried and failed to invade and colonize the Pashtuns. The Imperialist British tried but were unable to rule Afghanistan for long. There always was and always will be a strong resentment and revolt against Colonizers and Imperialists.
Why is Canada in Afghanistan???? US attacked Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban. But Why? Taliban themselves had nothing to do with 9-11-2001. 9-11-2001 was an attack by 19+ Saudi nationals who legally immigrated to the US and was paid for by Bin Laden (another Saudi). So why not Saudi Arabia and why Afghanistan? Bush is a dumb a$$ who is in over his head in both Afghanistan and Iraq and will not be able to change a damn thing in either country. In the end the US will bolt from both places.

Keeping all that mind, Yes Jack Layton is right. Canada should not be involved in Afghanistan. By being involved in Bush's war, it is putting Canada in greater risk. We are no longer viewed as a neutral country.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

What a load of mumbo-jumbo. Manage the power shift as it goes to the next power brokers? Are you writing a brochure?

You appear to be saying that you actually believe that this tiny bunch of morons are a threat to take over the world? You actually think that can happen in reality? You think in our lifetime it is even remotely possible that "the Western world" that we live in is under an actual real threat to be converted to Islam and forced to live under some crazy rules that these guys put together?

You must not have much faith in our "civilization" if you think a ragtag bunch of disorganized loons are a serious threat to destroy it in just a few decades. If you do believe it, what the hell are you doing wasting your time in here? If I believed that my life or my way of life -- my job, "religion", beliefs, worldly posessions, freedom -- were under a tangible threat, I'd join the military and actually do something about it. I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time discussing it on the internet.

My mistake, I thought you were interested in a serious discussion.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by White Doors

My mistake, I thought you were interested in a serious discussion.

What we have here is a classic example of a poster who finally realizes that he's in way over his head when everyone else realized that very same thing several pages ago.

Bye bye.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

What we have here is a classic example of a poster who finally realizes that he's in way over his head when everyone else realized that very same thing several pages ago.

Bye bye.

Seriously man, he has the right to his opinion, just like you.

And I was wondering why these threads go downhill so fast.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

great post, especially the last part. It's amazing how little understanding exists when such great potential for its spread also exists. But how do you increase understanding and education?

I agree that the his post was definitely worth reading. Maybe I would have if the first sentence didn't start out like this...

What an idiotic statement.

Until people can learn to keep the personal side out of these debates, why even read their posts? If you call the post idiotic, you call the poster idiotic.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

What we have here is a classic example of a poster who finally realizes that he's in way over his head when everyone else realized that very same thing several pages ago.

Bye bye.

And you can't even figure out when you have been addressed or not..
As an fyi, If I wanted any lip from you I'd rattle my zipper.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Azure

Until people can learn to keep the personal side out of these debates, why even read their posts?

I agree with that.

Originally Posted by Azure

If you call the post idiotic, you call the poster idiotic.

I disagree here.

Judge the statement, not the person.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I disagree here.

Judge the statement, not the person.

I guess we'll agree to disagree then.

I actually enjoy these debates, especially when Transplant, Bingo, Lanny, octothorp, Firefly, FlamesAddiction and many of the other good posters on here get involved. But I hate it when certain people start involving the personal side.

[Thunderball]

I simply have to say, agree or disagree with the merits of this conflict, its intentions, strategies or lack thereof... what Jack Layton proposes shows a real lack of understanding of international relations and international law.
While I am by no means an expert on either, I have studied it enough to state factually that Mr. Layton is mistaken in his strategy for a few key reasons:

1. Firstly... Canada already has a declining reputation in the international community (yes I know, people love Canadians, that's not the point, the point is, we're increasingly irrelevant in the international stage), especially due to things like Somalia and our cuts in military during the 90s that left us as the second lowest military spender per capita in NATO (aside from city-state Luxembourg with a burgeoning population that is eclipsed by metro Calgary). Tucking tail and running away would only add to the perception that Canada is not to be taken seriously. Not a good thing when you have a few territorial disputes and a ton of fresh water to protect.

2. Secondly, the Taliban are not a state actor. They are essentially, a political party. Political parties are only empowered when they are de jure powers. The Taliban were de facto heads of state and illegitimate as no state actor recognized them. For Canada to recognize this now illegitmate rebel force would be essentially giving them tacit support as a state actor. Very, very careless thing to do. The only groups that can actually negotiate with the Taliban are the Afghan Government, and the United Nations as a non-state actor.

3. Thirdly, progress in these types of conflicts take decades, not years. Look at where UN peacekeeping forces are currently situated, and the conflicts in these places are decades old. While places like Cyprus aren't frequently in the news like Afghanistan is, there are still troops there, and they are there because they are still necessary. Impatience at this critical step is what creates real issues. Insurgencies bank on impatience and attrition, and for real change that is apparenly supported by the democratically elected (though currently hapless) Afghan Government, the United Nations and according to many sources, the Afghan people.

Canada has been getting a bit of a bloody nose lately, but that definitely does not mean its time to run away.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by White Doors

My mistake, I thought you were interested in a serious discussion.

Oh come on now, don't got that route.

It was a real question. Do you actually believe there is a serious threat to the "Western World" and we could all be forced to convert to Islam and live under the rules as set by these people?

If you don't, then maybe you want to re-think the whole "they are as big a threat as Hitler was" idea.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

3. Thirdly, progress in these types of conflicts take decades, not years. Look at where UN peacekeeping forces are currently situated, and the conflicts in these places are decades old. While places like Cyprus aren't frequently in the news like Afghanistan is, there are still troops there, and they are there because they are still necessary. Impatience at this critical step is what creates real issues. Insurgencies bank on impatience and attrition, and for real change that is apparenly supported by the democratically elected (though currently hapless) Afghan Government, the United Nations and according to many sources, the Afghan people.

Canada has been getting a bit of a bloody nose lately, but that definitely does not mean its time to run away.

We agree on one thing. It will take decades to resolve Afghanistan's problems. Time will tell if young men will welcome the opportunity to join the Canadian Armed Forces and risk their lives for the 'Afghan democracy'.

I have my doubts. Let's not kid ourselves, Afghanistan's problems run much deeper than Taliban insurgents, as many posters have rightfully pointed out, and the democratically elected government of Afghanistan could more correctly be referred to as the democratically elected government of Kabul.

In years to come and if Canada remains in Afghanistan, it will be interesting to see the impact the Afghan mission has, if any, on recruitment.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by White Doors

As an fyi, If I wanted any lip from you I'd rattle my zipper.

Ouch, you really got me good there.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Ouch, you really got me good there.

You guys are going to make Azure cry

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

You guys are going to make Azure cry

Yeah because both of us know that bringing the personal side to every frickin' debate makes it that much more interesting.