VW Emissions Rigging

[pylon]

Originally Posted by zamler

Is anyone suggesting this, or saying VW is going out of business? I don't get why you're talking about these extremes.

I am trying to discuss this very civilly. You are the one that suggested re-sale on TDI's just plummeted. They haven't. And they may not. This could be as simple as a software fix. Nobody knows at this point.

Look, I don't work for VWAG, and I didn't have any involvement with this decision, neither did I supply them with the ECU programming to do this. I know, I work for the 'Stealership' and I must be somehow in on this.

I am a glorified cashier/loans officer at a car dealership, and I am just as disappointed as anyone else, but there isn't even a proposed fix yet, or any market data to determine what sort of impact this has. However, globally, North America is pocket change for VWAG, and that is where this is going to hurt them most.

At this point I will bow out of the discussion, as anything I say will be twisted.

[chemgear]

Man, it's pretty ballsy to commit that kind of (systemic?) fraud.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by pylon

I am trying to discuss this very civilly. You are the one that suggested re-sale on TDI's just plummeted. They haven't.

Common sense and market forces make it easy to predict that a vehicle sold on the merits of fuel efficiency will see the resale drop when said vehicle no longer has said merits.

This could be as simple as a software fix.

Software may be able to bring the engine up to emissions standards but not at the expense of power or fuel efficiency or both. No free lunch VW cheated on the test and risked billions in fines and a damaged reputation for a reason.

Look, I don't work for VWAG, and I didn't have any involvement with this decision, neither did I supply them with the ECU programming to do this. I know, I work for the 'Stealership' and I must be somehow in on this.

Huh?

At this point I will bow out of the discussion, as anything I say will be twisted.

I think you're being a tad paranoid.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by zamler

Common sense and market forces make it easy to predict that a vehicle sold on the merits of fuel efficiency will see the resale drop when said vehicle no longer has said merits.

They still have the fuel efficiency, it is the emissions that are bad. Most people bought for the mpg, not for the promise of low emissions (at least here in Alberta).

[zamler]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

They still have the fuel efficiency, it is the emissions that are bad.

And what happens when the fuel mapping is changed so the engine complies with emissions standards? Nothing? Engine runs exactly the same, gets the same power and mileage?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

They still have the fuel efficiency, it is the emissions that are bad. Most people bought for the mpg, not for the promise of low emissions (at least here in Alberta).

Unless they have to neuter the fuel efficiency in order to get the emissions in line.

[BlackArcher101]

That's true, but I don't think that will be a solution for them.

On another note, IF they did that, would they even do that here? Or would they recall only for areas where emissions laws force them to.

I actually don't know... is there a law in Canada/Alberta that prevents the sale of these TDI's because of emissions.

[chemgear]

I wonder how many more countries VW did this in. I can't imagine it was just for US market. Or if other companies tried this - it does seem pretty bold.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle26450438/

Volkswagen shares plunged more than 20 per cent on Monday, their biggest one-day fall, after the German car maker admitted it had rigged emissions tests in the United States, and U.S. authorities said they would widen their probe to other manufacturers.

Germany, alarmed at the potential damage the scandal could inflict on its world-beating car industry, urged Volkswagen to fully clear up the matter and said it would investigate whether emissions data had also been falsified in Europe.

Germany’s transport minister was due to discuss the issue with Volkswagen Chief Executive Martin Winterkorn on Monday, two government sources said, without elaborating.

“This disaster is beyond all expectations,” said Ferdinand Dudenhoeffer, head of the Center of Automotive Research at the University of Duisburg-Essen.

[bigtmac19]

Is this emission testing the kind we have in Ontario, that's tied to our annual licence renewal?

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

I actually don't know... is there a law in Canada/Alberta that prevents the sale of these TDI's because of emissions.

It seems like VW/Audi have removed the TDI option from their website. I suspect in this VW situation whatever the US does, Canada will quickly follow. I'd also expect that at the very least in provinces that does emissions testing, that affected TDIs won't be register-able until proven that they've been fixed by VW.

[opendoor]

I'm curious what the emissions are from pre-2009 TDIs, because the fuel economy in those is no worse than in the newer ones and any difference in performance is slight.

[BigNumbers]

.... aaaaand bad turns to worse for some poor mid-level exec who's going to get hung with this:

http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-is-no...tio-1732130214

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by bigtmac19

Is this emission testing the kind we have in Ontario, that's tied to our annual licence renewal?

I believe these tests are done before the vehicle is allowed to be sold in the US (and I would assume Canada since they aren't being sold here anymore either).

The Ontario tests are for older cars to make sure they are still running 'clean'.

[iggyformayor]

I'm quite concerned about what this means for me. Although I'm not sure what the regulations are in Alberta, if they do need to do a recall and fix the emissions, how will this effect the mileage on my vehicle, as it was the main reason I paid substantially more than the regular 2.5L Golf. Also, how will this effect my resale value, as it was another big factor that played into me buying the car I did. If either of these are impacted, there needs to be some sort of restitution for myself and others who have paid a premium for these vehicles.

[me_dennis]

does this affect Audi 3.0 TDI engines? I bought a 2015 Q5 last November, and I am also interested on what this means for me.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by me_dennis

does this affect Audi 3.0 TDI engines? I bought a 2015 Q5 last November, and I am also interested on what this means for me.

It only affects the 2L TDI engines, though I'm not sure if they have begun testing other diesel engines yet.

[calumniate]

This is over ten years ago, but I always wondered why this little golf TDI diesel would essentially stink up a block if left idling.

[HotHotHeat]

As this unravels, it's becoming really interesting. Sounds like cars have been bypassing some sort of emissions controller because VW couldn't achieve the lifespan they wanted at the manufacturing cost they were committing to.

The worst part for owners of the cars is the 'fix' they will likely have a recall for will result in shorter lifespans of said controller.

I was really starting to look at the 2016 VW Tiguan to replace my Acura, but this is really damning.

EDIT: Reports saying the Nitrogen Oxide emissions with the controller disabled are 40 times the EPA allowed amount. If true, wow.

[pylon]

For the obvious reasons I am going to refrain from making any more public comments on this. However, if you own a VW TDI, shoot me a PM, and I will send out any updates via PM's once I know what is ultimately going to happen.

If you do own a TDI however, I would recommend you just take a deep breath, this isn't as apocalyptic as it seems. There will be a fix, just let this play out, and drive your car like you always have. Manufacturers have had life threatening defects on cars, that they knew of, and their resale values weren't destroyed over it.

I have worked for VW for 15+ years, and I know they will do the right thing in the end.

Just be glad it isn't a Pontiac Aztec.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

A few great articles on this.

- The testing that uncovered this was originally done to show "how clean" these diesels were: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...lean-air-group

- A pretty good round up from Jalopnik: http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-di...g-c-1731857018

- Very thorough write up from a "Green car" site (probably the best article of the bunch): http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...n-10-questions

This part is especially interesting - about how owners could face financial losses and I have to think VW will be on the hook "to keep owners whole".

They paid more for their cars: Premiums over comparable gasoline models range from $1,000 on Golfs with mid- and high-level trims to $6,855 on top-level Passat models. While used diesels historically were worth more on the used-car market, that may not prove to be the case going forward.

Second, if VW is able to develop a fix and get it approved, the performance and fuel efficiency of their cars might fall. That's more likely if the fix is only a software update, which would be far cheaper for Volkswagen.

If VW ends up having to make software changes and retrofit an entire SCR system to the cars (other than the Passat TDI)--something that would likely cost it thousands of dollars per car--performance would likely be unchanged, but interior volume might be reduced to accommodate a liquid-urea tank and associated plumbing.

Third, and most worrisome for owners in California and some other states, they may not be able to re-sell or even re-register their TDI vehicles until they are fixed by Volkswagen.

What I found interesting was some of the conjecture around how the "defeat device" worked:

Volkswagen has admitted that it equipped the control software for its 2.0-liter TDI diesel vehicles with a "defeat device" that detected when the car was undergoing emissions testing and significantly changed the operations of its powertrain to reduce emissions during the tests.

That detection was likely based on a combination of sensor data from the car, which might include steering angle (since cars on dynamometer tests don't make turns), front-wheel versus rear-wheel rotation speed, and a variety of other factors.

The emission test cycles that were developed in the early 1970s are far less aggressive than virtually any real-world driving 40 years later.

It appears that a combination of the factors above plus extremely gentle acceleration and braking might alert the car that it wasn't on the road but being tested in a lab.

Diesel engines are known to generate nitrous oxides (NOx), as do gasoline engines, but in greater quantities due to their higher operating temperatures.

Based on discussions with knowledgeable sources, we surmise that once an emissions test was detected, VW got the affected TDI engines to meet the Tier 2, Bin 5 NOx limits by reducing the fuel flow rate.

This would reduce performance, but most likely not to the point where the car couldn't complete the emission cycles.

Lowering fuel flow would also reduce combustion temperatures and/or the duration of high-temperature operation enough to keep NOx emissions barely within EPA limits.

If the car detected that it was no longer in "testing mode" but had returned to "driving mode," it would restore fuel flow to the regular level--which would send NOx emissions soaring.

The odd thing is that this software feature seems to have persisted into the company's newest generation of 2.0-liter TDI diesels, a heavily revised design known as EA288, which was intended to be fitted with urea aftertreatment systems--which allow other makers to meet the NOx limits under all circumstances.

A shame, I quite like what the diesel motor offers but it'll be interesting to see if this strangles future diesel initiatives from ALL the manufacturers.