[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[Hackey]

Stamps should build something like this

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/blog...s-08-17-15.jpg

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

In what way?

I am obviously defending Nenshi, but I just felt the whole staying up all night and such was a bit too much publicity. I question how much leadership a mayor provides in those circumstances when city managers and other disaster managers are really the ones doing everything.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

True. But if the city went ahead with only high-density residential development in the area, and nixed the arena-stadium complex, they would make more money in taxes.

This isn't a certainty at all. This would depend on a variety of factors including built densities and, more importantly, use.

Commercial development is higher value than residential and thus yields more tax revenue. If this development can attract a greater degree of office and retail development, it might produce more revenue for the City than the former West Village plans.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Stamps should build something like this

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/blog...s-08-17-15.jpg

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I'd like to see a discounted cash flow comparing projected property tax receipts in the area upon redevelopment (less costs borne by the City) against the status quo.

Then we can see whether this make sense to the taxpayer.

Chicken or the egg. Does building an arena initiate high-density development? Does an area attract development?

doubtful.

[The Familia]

Like I had feared....I'm underwhelmed and disappointed with what I am seeing so far. None of the buildings strike me as cutting edge. The whole facility looks like a jumbled mess and a huge hunk of concrete. The field house is what I feared, a giant gymnasium with bleachers. It does not look like a stadium and the track ruins the sight lines no matter if the seats can retract or not. The inside looks like a school gym. The roof must be transparent with operable windows if there is no retractable roof. Capacity is too small, should be 35,000. The arena? Good God what is that mess? A giant lower bowl and then what appears as countless rings of office windows? Also looks bland. Obviously these are not the final plans nor final renderings, but a project that was supposed to build excitement after all these years is a major letdown. If this is the final plan I vote NO to providing a single penny of government money.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Benched

I was wondering this too (earlier in thread) and was told that you lose capacity due to improved leg room, bigger walk ways, more concourse, etc.

So the building may actually be bigger, but you lose seats.

Not sure if that's true or if the arena is smaller/same size to squeeze it into the available land (which is my fear).


Honestly, without more info on the design and specs, it's all speculation at this point.

I took note when King was asked about capacities, and said "between 19 and 20 thousand". I think he means between 18 and 19 thousand myself.

A good example of the cost of higher capacity is the Saddledome. The cheapest seats are the Sportchek zone, and those cost $26 through Sportchek. They get a wholesale price on that (they want to make money as well, otherwise there would be no point), so lets assume they pay the Flames $20 per ticket. If you ripped out 1000 Sportchek seats to reduce capacity to 18,300, the Flames would be losing only about $1.2 million in revenue over the course of the regular season, at most. And since we never came close to filling the 300s for many games last year, the real loss is well south of that. But they still had to pay to maintain those seats, to clean them, to heat the extra space inside the building because of them, etc.

So for the Flames, taking away low value seats creates a better fan experience (building always fuller), saves some costs, and helps keep supply and demand at better ratios for no significant loss in revenue. Building three or four more suites in the new facility would offset that entirely.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Commercial development is higher value than residential and thus yields more tax revenue. If this development can attract a greater degree of office and retail development, it might produce more revenue for the City than the former West Village plans.

That's an interesting point. If the project goes through, land along the CPR tracks (facing eastbound Bow Trail) will immediately become a prime location for commercial development. That wouldn't be the case if the West Village were primarily a residential area. Of course, the lands along the tracks will not be used for residential development in any case; so their entire value depends on how attractive the location is for businesses.

[HotHotHeat]

After what was announced today, I think we all have to come to terms with the fact that the Flames will attempt to do what every other pro sports franchise in North America has done, which is minimize their costs of building a stadium.

King's reply to Eric Francis' legitimate question regarding revenue from events was pathetic.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

That's an interesting point. If the project goes through, land along the CPR tracks (facing eastbound Bow Trail) will immediately become a prime location for commercial development. That wouldn't be the case if the West Village were primarily a residential area. Of course, the lands along the tracks will not be used for residential development in any case; so their entire value depends on how attractive the location is for businesses.

Why would it be attractive?

[KTrain]

I'm still wondering why they waited so long to announce this. Were they waiting/hoping for a rebound in the market so the plan would be more palatable to the public? They've had this plan for months and longer. If they announced this closer to the end of playoffs the public might have been less critical.

I love the plan. The costs scare me because there's no way they can do it for the budget they're proposing. Too many ifs right now.

In terms of funding, I would be fine with the cost if the Flames fronted the ticket tax.

[MelBridgeman]

If Nenshi says NO then he's gotta go!

[Hackey]

Vegas is doing it right. Their arena looks pretty awesome.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Wait, I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding that funding chart.

They need that money up front. It's not like a 20 year operational budget.



Absolutely. And the privately funded owners would shoulder the risk that the project is a complete disaster, and that maybe they lose money every year cuz they can't sell enough tickets to people wanting to use the fieldhouse.

Right now, the City fronts the 250M (you're not understanding this), and then recoups it through ticket tax (this part you have it right). That 250M is a very large loan and a large liability on our city. It has significant risk - if oil continues to stay low, or maybe Gaudreau/Monahan/Brodie/Hamilton all have career ending injuries, it's very possible that the complex is not break-even.

Huge risk?
Please...
Zero risk on ticket tax, and yes - still don't know who actually puts that up, so..

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I am obviously defending Nenshi, but I just felt the whole staying up all night and such was a bit too much publicity. I question how much leadership a mayor provides in those circumstances when city managers and other disaster managers are really the ones doing everything.

While I agree it was a bit contrived the way Nenshi handled himself was at least sincere and he did give direction and focus for his citizens. If you encountered former ward 8 councillor John Mar you'd have seen true contrived bullcrap from a guy getting ready for an upcoming election.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Stamps should build something like this

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/blog...s-08-17-15.jpg

The "Stamps" aren't a thing, they're owned by the Flames ownership group. They aren't going to do something different then this.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

While I agree it was a bit contrived the way Nenshi handled himself was at least sincere and he did give direction and focus for his citizens. If you encountered former ward 8 councillor John Mar you'd have seen true contrived bullcrap from a guy getting ready for an upcoming election.

I would agree with that.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by The Familia

Like I had feared....I'm underwhelmed and disappointed with what I am seeing so far. None of the buildings strike me as cutting edge.

You do know that those are not renderings of the actual design, right?

The whole facility looks like a jumbled mess and a huge hunk of concrete.

That would be because those are not renderings of the actual design. They pulled graphics from here, there, and everywhere to give people a general idea of what they have in mind.

The field house is what I feared, a giant gymnasium with bleachers.

That would be because those are not renderings of the actual design.

It does not look like a stadium and the track ruins the sight lines no matter if the seats can retract or not.

I fail to see how that is the case. You might as well say that the end concert stage at the Saddledome ruins the sight lines in the lower bowl, no matter if the seats can retract or not.

The inside looks like a school gym.

You do know that those are not renderings of the actual design, right?

The roof must be transparent with operable windows if there is no retractable roof.

You do know that those are not renderings of the actual design, right?

Capacity is too small, should be 35,000.

Why is 35,000 a magic number? Do you have hard numbers to support that, or did you, as I suspect, just pull it out of your posterior fundamental orifice?

The arena? Good God what is that mess?

It's a cheap mockup done in a cheap 3-D program, and not a rendering of the actual design.

A giant lower bowl and then what appears as countless rings of office windows? Also looks bland. Obviously these are not the final plans nor final renderings,

Hey, we seem to have comprehension at last! But then you say this:

but a project that was supposed to build excitement after all these years is a major letdown. If this is the final plan

It isn't. You do know that those are not renderings of the actual design, right?

I vote NO to providing a single penny of government money.

Right. Better to spend the $200m on a stand-alone fieldhouse, which will have all the drawbacks you just mentioned, and then never build a new arena or football stadium at all.

[bizaro86]

I'm looking at this as basically a chance for the city/CSE to get a CFL stadium out of this. The Flames $200MM contribution plus the $250 MM ticket tax would be enough to pay for a new rink for the Flames. They wouldn't need a CRL, and could put it somewhere else to avoid the contamination. By combining the stadium and arena, you made the stadium cheaper. By combining the fieldhouse/stadium, you justify public $ in it, and add the cities $ and the CRL.

I look at this as the ownership/ticket holders paying for the arena, and the CRL/city paying for a fieldhouse/CFL stadium, which is cheaper because of economies of scale. Realistically, the owners will never build a new CFL stadium, so this is the only way we get one.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Injuries to particular hockey players are not going to cause the Flames to leave town. Show me a case where that has ever happened in the history of professional sports.

As for oil continuing to stay low: Oil is a cyclical commodity. The price is never permanently high or permanently low. But for some reason, when the price is high, people foolishly assume it will go up forever, and when it is low, people foolishly assume it will never go up again. Both of those assumptions are plainly false and need not be taken into account.

I'm just saying that the City should not be the one to shoulder the risk. The city is shouldering risk via the CRL, and it makes sense since their job to plan/develop land, not sell tickets.

I also don't agree that the only risk is the Flames moving out of town. I think if the facilities only had 60% attendance due to whatever reason (too expensive, flames sucking, no corporate sponsors etc.), then the facility would lose money.

Obviously, if CS&E comes out and says that they're taking out commercial loans to do it, then there's no issue. I'm not holding my breath for that.