[Trade] Canucks acquire B. Sutter + 3rd for Bonino, Clendening, + 2nd. UPD: Sutter signed.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If you're handing out an NTC, the team should be negotiating some kind of break on the AAV. They didn't get that.

No kidding, that contract is so one-sided I'm shocked that it wasnt offered by the City of Glendale.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by getbak

Under the new CBA, if a player signs a contract extension that includes a No-Trade or No-Move clause, that clause can be retroactively added to his existing contract as well (if the player is eligible to have such a clause on his contract).

The Jeff Carter rule.

[Bingo]

saw some twitter defenses on Sutter today. Suggested that corsi is only one way to look at players and that GA/60 Sutter is one of the best defensive players in the game.

His 6 year GA/60 is 1.81

Interesting stat if you have a poor corsi number but don't give up goals. Shots aren't going for you but you're keeping the goals against down. Quality of shots the issues? Goalies bailing a player out.

Anyway ... reason I bring this up is Joe Colborne.

He was second only to Matt Stajan in that stat last year (Stajan at 1.49, Colborne at 1.88), and similarly Colborne was poor in corsi stats despite not getting scored on (Colborne 16th on the team in CF%)

Interesting to see advanced stat guys forced to drop Corsi to defend a player, but it does open up an interesting discussion for players of that type.

Really wonder where this advanced stat thing will go in the future, you have to think shot attempts will give way to some sort of an actual scoring chance measure.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

saw some twitter defenses on Sutter today. Suggested that corsi is only one way to look at players and that GA/60 Sutter is one of the best defensive players in the game.

His 6 year GA/60 is 1.81

Interesting stat if you have a poor corsi number but don't give up goals. Shots aren't going for you but you're keeping the goals against down. Quality of shots the issues? Goalies bailing a player out.

Anyway ... reason I bring this up is Joe Colborne.

He was second only to Matt Stajan in that stat last year (Stajan at 1.49, Colborne at 1.88), and similarly Colborne was poor in corsi stats despite not getting scored on (Colborne 16th on the team in CF%)

Interesting to see advanced stat guys forced to drop Corsi to defend a player, but it does open up an interesting discussion for players of that type.

Really wonder where this advanced stat thing will go in the future, you have to think shot attempts will give way to some sort of an actual scoring chance measure.

I think one area where a statistical measure for defense is falling short is in comparing players of different positions.

I"m not on board this 'Sutter isn't that good' train. I think Brandon Sutter is actually quite good.

When I see him play, I see his line giving up low percentage shots and/or clearing rebounds and loose pucks from in front of the net. Statistically, this might not be apparent or may even count against him as you point out above, but if you have those stats in front of you and then watch some video, it gives you a better context for 'how' he plays.

I think Vancouver picking up Sutter is a good deal in a bad direction. I don't think his contract is 'laughably' bad, but it is on the premium scale buying UFA years.

To bring it back to Colborne, I see Colborne turning the puck over or losing it with relative frequency from the redline into his own zone, but not in the catastrophic sort of ways that will cause his or the teams statistics to bleed.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Bingo

saw some twitter defenses on Sutter today. Suggested that corsi is only one way to look at players and that GA/60 Sutter is one of the best defensive players in the game.

His 6 year GA/60 is 1.81

Interesting stat if you have a poor corsi number but don't give up goals. Shots aren't going for you but you're keeping the goals against down. Quality of shots the issues? Goalies bailing a player out.

Anyway ... reason I bring this up is Joe Colborne.

He was second only to Matt Stajan in that stat last year (Stajan at 1.49, Colborne at 1.88), and similarly Colborne was poor in corsi stats despite not getting scored on (Colborne 16th on the team in CF%)

Interesting to see advanced stat guys forced to drop Corsi to defend a player, but it does open up an interesting discussion for players of that type.

Really wonder where this advanced stat thing will go in the future, you have to think shot attempts will give way to some sort of an actual scoring chance measure.

I really agree with that last part. The problem I have with all the shot attempt stats so far is the thinking that taking low quality shots is somehow good. And taking more low quality shots is even better! Taking a week shot from along the boards and having your teammate shovel the rebound into the goalies crest is 'better' than a cross crease pass to an open teammate for an easy goal. That makes no sense to me.

GA/60 is much more interesting as a stat. And should allow for comparisons of players regardless of the team's style.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Bingo

saw some twitter defenses on Sutter today. Suggested that corsi is only one way to look at players and that GA/60 Sutter is one of the best defensive players in the game.

His 6 year GA/60 is 1.81

Interesting stat if you have a poor corsi number but don't give up goals. Shots aren't going for you but you're keeping the goals against down. Quality of shots the issues? Goalies bailing a player out.

Anyway ... reason I bring this up is Joe Colborne.

He was second only to Matt Stajan in that stat last year (Stajan at 1.49, Colborne at 1.88), and similarly Colborne was poor in corsi stats despite not getting scored on (Colborne 16th on the team in CF%)

Interesting to see advanced stat guys forced to drop Corsi to defend a player, but it does open up an interesting discussion for players of that type.

Really wonder where this advanced stat thing will go in the future, you have to think shot attempts will give way to some sort of an actual scoring chance measure.

The problem with GA/60 is that it doesn't take into account quality of competition.

Now I don't know where to look up QoC stats but I would imagine Stajan was seeing mostly 4th line minutes while Colborne was not.

Thats the problem with Brandon Sutter's GA/60. Was he seeing the tough minutes? Or was Crosby/Malkin/Staal/Who ever were the other centers.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Weitz

The problem with GA/60 is that it doesn't take into account quality of competition.

Now I don't know where to look up QoC stats but I would imagine Stajan was seeing mostly 4th line minutes while Colborne was not.

Thats the problem with Brandon Sutter's GA/60. Was he seeing the tough minutes? Or was Crosby/Malkin/Staal/Who ever were the other centers.

It wasn't Staal as he was traded for Sutter

[ricardodw]

Craig Conroy was a low scoring primarily checking 3rd line center (behind Turgeon and Demitra) when he was traded to the Flames. He was traded for Stillman (Perhaps Bonino type player)

Conroy's best scoring year before he was given an offensive opportunity on the Flames .... when scoring was a lot higher than it is for Sutter... was 43 pts where he was the 7th leading scoring on the Blues. Just before he became a Flame he had 39 - 27 - 32 pt seasons.

First season with the Flames he had 75 pts in 81 games 2nd to Iginla's 96.

Did he learn how to score as a 29 year old or was he finally given an opportunity to play in the top-6?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Here's quite an interesting statistic of Sutter:

Sutter, 14-15, 5v5:
1000+ min
had 3 primary assists

Since 2002, no center had less primary assists in at least 1000min. Only 2 also had 3.

Does he just have 0 playmaking ability or is he selfish?

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

It wasn't Staal as he was traded for Sutter

Eric Staal... In Carolina before the trade.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

...Did he learn how to score as a 29 year old or was he finally given an opportunity to play in the top-6?

So, how often does this happen? Conroy is a terrific example of the very rare instance in which a player does a lot more with his opportunity than expected of him, but is this something that occurs with any regularity? Enough so as to expect the same thing for Brandon Sutter?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Here's quite an interesting statistic of Sutter:

Sutter, 14-15, 5v5:
1000+ min
had 3 primary assists

Since 2002, no center had less primary assists in at least 1000min. Only 2 also had 3.

Does he just have 0 playmaking ability or is he selfish?

21 goals from a 3rd line centre would kind of say he was a shooter not a passer.

Is Monahan a relatively poor play maker (31 goals and 31 assists) or just selfish?

[Hackey]

Nick Foligno?
Alex Steen?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

So, how often does this happen? Conroy is a terrific example of the very rare instance in which a player does a lot more with his opportunity than expected of him, but is this something that occurs with any regularity? Enough so as to expect the same thing for Brandon Sutter?

Additionally, is Sutter going to be playing with a prime Jarome Iginla on his RW?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

21 goals from a 3rd line centre would kind of say he was a shooter not a passer.

Is Monahan a relatively poor play maker (31 goals and 31 assists) or just selfish?

Someone as obsessed as you are with obscure stats should be all over this. Why would you bring Monahan up? Their game and stats are not remotely comparable, but it wouldn't be a ricardo post if it made sense I guess.

You have to go out of your way to get so few assists. Maxim Lapierre has more primary assists than Sutter. Try to comprehend that..

A 20 goal 3rd line centre doesn't sound as good when you can't contribute with primary assists. Shows how 1-dimensional his offense is.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

21 goals from a 3rd line centre would kind of say he was a shooter not a passer.

Is Monahan a relatively poor play maker (31 goals and 31 assists) or just selfish?

Why don't you clearly state your point? Do *you* think Monahan is a "relatively" poor play maker? What does this have to do with Sutter?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

21 goals from a 3rd line centre would kind of say he was a shooter not a passer.

Is Monahan a relatively poor play maker (31 goals and 31 assists) or just selfish?

This is a false dichotomy, and really a useless attempted point since Monohan is neither a "poor play maker," nor is he "just selfish."

It's bizarre that you have introduced him in a thread about Brandon Sutter, as if to suggest that Monahan and Sutter are in some way comparable. They are not.

Do you think Monahan is a "poor play maker"? Do you think he is "selfish"? Is he a comparable player to Brandon Sutter?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Why don't you clearly state your point? Do *you* think Monahan is a "relatively" poor play maker? What does this have to do with Sutter?

No Monahan is not necessarily a poor playmaker.... he is a scorer. In general scorers are more important than play makers.... Cammalleri is and was more valuable than Tanguay. Looking for a one-timer in the slot or getting into a good scoring position and looking to pass off?


I was arguing the premise that Sutter was a bad play maker or selfish because he had so relatively few assists.

The option left out was that he was usually the best goal scorer on the lines he got to play on.

I was pointing out the absurdity of that statement by showing that using the same criteria Monahan could very easily be classified in the same manner as a poor playmaker or selfish.


Are all goal scorers selfish?


Ovechkin is consistently just setting himself u for a shot and letting his linemates work it over to him... Want to call him selfish or is that just the best hockey strategy and way to score goals as a team?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

No Monahan is not necessarily a poor playmaker.... he is a scorer. In general scorers are more important than play makers.... Cammalleri is and was more valuable than Tanguay. Looking for a one-timer in the slot or getting into a good scoring position and looking to pass off?


I was arguing the premise that Sutter was a bad play maker or selfish because he had so relatively few assists.

The option left out was that he was usually the best goal scorer on the lines he got to play on.

I was pointing out the absurdity of that statement by showing that using the same criteria Monahan could very easily be classified in the same manner as a poor playmaker or selfish.


Are all goal scorers selfish?


Ovechkin is consistently just setting himself u for a shot and letting his linemates work it over to him... Want to call him selfish or is that just the best hockey strategy and way to score goals as a team?

A guy who's career best is 21 tallies is now a "goal scorer" that you're now actively comparing to Ovechkin and Monahan?

Just painful.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

No Monahan is not necessarily a poor playmaker.... he is a scorer. In general scorers are more important than play makers.... Cammalleri is and was more valuable than Tanguay. Looking for a one-timer in the slot or getting into a good scoring position and looking to pass off?


I was arguing the premise that Sutter was a bad play maker or selfish because he had so relatively few assists.

The option left out was that he was usually the best goal scorer on the lines he got to play on.

I was pointing out the absurdity of that statement by showing that using the same criteria Monahan could very easily be classified in the same manner as a poor playmaker or selfish.


Are all goal scorers selfish?


Ovechkin is consistently just setting himself u for a shot and letting his linemates work it over to him... Want to call him selfish or is that just the best hockey strategy and way to score goals as a team?

Except you aren't using the same criteria.. Monahan had as many assists as goals. Not to mention he was known as a playmaker in junior.. That makes the comparison a joke.

And Sutter doesn't have relatively few assists. He has record breaking few assists...

Time to kick off my ignore list. It's like talking to a wall and not worth losing my sanity over. I used to have chuckles reading your posts, but now it's just a chore.