Same sex marriage; A look at CP's gradual acceptance

[jayswin]

I know Jiri and few others had mentioned how same sex marriage debates used to go on CP, compared to now.

I remember a time when it honestly felt like only 60/40 in favor. But the other thread got me thinking; Not only has CP gone through a huge shift in general feelings towards it, but I honestly can't remember the last time I even saw a poster speak out against same sex marriage.

So I think a little discussion on how people's views have changed over the past decade (or more) is in order.

I would encourage those that used to be against it and changed their stance to be vocal, as those are who'd I'd like to hear from the most. I'd also encourage posters to not chastise, mock or talk down to anyone who wishes to speak up about being against it, as I'd like to see a true representation of the breakdown of CP posters.

Mods, could we get a poll on this one? I think that would be very helpful. Anonymous, I guess, so people aren't afraid to vote. I guess a simple "are you for or against?" would be good, but if anyone has any suggestions for a more complex poll that maybe captures the change in CP's collective stance over the years, I'd like to hear it.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by flameswin

I remember a time when it honestly felt like only 60/40 in favor. But the other thread got me thinking; Not only has CP gone through a huge shift in general feelings towards it, but I honestly can't remember the last time I even saw a poster speak out against same sex marriage.

That's probably because several of the more vocal bigots like HOZ and Calgaryborn are no longer permitted to post their bile on CP.

[btimbit]

Interesting idea for a thread. Would be nice if there was a way to make the discussion anonymous because I doubt most people that are against it will speak up since they'll just be attacked for it. Which I never understand, calling someone ignorant and yelling at them isn't going to change any views, it's just going to make that person put up a wall.

I'll be honest, I used to be against it. Seems ridiculous to me now but 10-15 years ago my reasons made sense to me. I was never homophobic, I never hated homosexuals, I just didn't like the marriage part, thought it was something that should be for a man and a woman, that silly old schtick.

I changed my views a while back because of a few realizations, but this was the main one. Same sex marriage has nothing to do with me. It literally effects my life in zero ways. So why the hell should I care? If something can literally have no negative effect on me, but only have a positive effect on others, then it makes absolutely no sense to be against it.

It didn't happen overnight, but I'm now very pro same sex marriage. Whether you love a man or a woman, you deserve to be treated equally and to be happy.

I'd say a lot of it came with maturity and getting older as well.

[Muta]

I still don't understand why people care so much what others do, especially behind closed doors. Tolerance to the LGBT community is great, and tremendously overdue. Glad it's here.

[Azure]

I used to be against it as well.

Now I find it hilarious when people claim that marriage is being ruined because the US basically legalized same sex marriage. I guess the 50% divorce rate and all the broken families still made for a strong institution of marriage.

[WCW Nitro]

Still against it. The argument for it seems to be it's not affecting you and who are you to say what marriage is. However, a society is always making judgments about what marriage is and drawing limits. For example, if 2 brothers or sisters wanted to get married, I'd imagine fewer people would be in favor even though this type of marriage has the same impact on an individual level for any person. And let's say 6 people came together and said who are you to say that only 2 people should be allowed to get married. Let the flaming begin (no pun intended).

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Still against it. The argument for it seems to be it's not affecting you and who are you to say what marriage is. However, a society is always making judgments about what marriage is and drawing limits. For example, if 2 brothers or sisters wanted to get married, I'd imagine fewer people would be in favor even though this type of marriage has the same impact on an individual level for any person. And let's say 6 people came together and said who are you to say that only 2 people should be allowed to get married. Let the flaming begin (no pun intended).

So just to clarify, you feel like it's a slippery slope and you're afraid that if we allow gay marriage then it will lead to other types of non-traditional marriage, or you feel that if we allow gay people to marry then literally anyone should be able to get married?

edit: Thanks for responding, btw. I know going against the grain can be annoying/frustrating on CP, sometimes.

[Flabbibulin]

I have no doubt that we will one day, in the future, look back at this same sex marriage debate the same way we currently look back at the interracial marriage debate from many years ago- in shame and disbelief that such a large percentage of the population could actually be so adamantly against it.... There is no doubt many people from that generation still alive today hang their head in shame at how they once felt. The difference however, is that most people in the 60s or so could transition out of their beliefs with virtually no public record of their racist ideology. Hell, a lot of people could be dishonest about their past and claim that of course they never held such racist views. Not the case today. We have an endless number of public records thanks to Facebook and Twitter of people pronouncing their hate in what is quite possibly a permanent manner. Im not suggesting that society one day use these records to shame people once the greater collective has an overwhelming turnaround. I'm suggesting that progression is inevitable, and a lot of people are putting up hateful opinions that are sure to haunt them years down the road...

And I am in no way saying that we no longer see racism today and that all are completely accepting of interracial marriage. I am saying that the general viewpoint today is considerably different than it was 40 or 50 years ago. I expect the same thing to happen with same sex marriage.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by flameswin

So just to clarify, you feel like it's a slippery slope and you're afraid that if we allow gay marriage then it will lead to other types of non-traditional marriage, or you feel that if we allow gay people to marry then literally anyone should be able to get married?

That's essentially the stance of the dissenting opinion in the SCOTUS decision - where do you draw the line. It makes sense, but I still don't care if a brother and sister got married. If we could stop them from having kids that'd be great though, and I'm sure there's enough medical evidence that it wouldn't be considered discrimination to do so.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by flameswin

So just to clarify, you feel like it's a slippery slope and you're afraid that if we allow gay marriage then it will lead to other types of non-traditional marriage, or you feel that if we allow gay people to marry then literally anyone should be able to get married?

edit: Thanks for responding, btw. I know going against the grain can be annoying/frustrating on CP, sometimes.

Both. I do feel a slippery slope on a personal level, but I also think that if you are pro-gay marriage than any marriage should be acceptable (willing partners).

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Still against it. The argument for it seems to be it's not affecting you and who are you to say what marriage is. However, a society is always making judgments about what marriage is and drawing limits. For example, if 2 brothers or sisters wanted to get married, I'd imagine fewer people would be in favor even though this type of marriage has the same impact on an individual level for any person. And let's say 6 people came together and said who are you to say that only 2 people should be allowed to get married. Let the flaming begin (no pun intended).

Well, as to incestuous couplings, there are certainly health risks associated with reproducing. It genuinely seems poor for the gene pool, and that kind of risk can actually supersede social constructions. I have heard some very smart people discuss the widespread 'ickyness' factor as being a result of genetic discouragement towards the practice.

I don't really have a strong reason to deter polygamy/polyandry. I guess some may argue psychological complications related to traditional human relationships, but I'm sure that mentally healthy and well adjusted individuals would (and probably already do) have healthy and functional relationships in these situations.

[Looch City]

Who here hasn't accidentally clicked on a gay porn link...anyone?

Just me?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

I have no doubt that we will one day, in the future, look back at this same sex marriage debate the same way we currently look back at the interracial marriage debate from many years ago- in shame and disbelief that such a large percentage of the population could actually be so adamantly against it.... There is no doubt many people from that generation still alive today hang their head in shame at how they once felt. The difference however, is that most people in the 60s or so could transition out of their beliefs with virtually no public record of their racist ideology. Hell, a lot of people could be dishonest about their past and claim that of course they never held such racist views. Not the case today. We have an endless number of public records thanks to Facebook and Twitter of people pronouncing their hate in what is quite possibly a permanent manner. Im not suggesting that society one day use these records to shame people once the greater collective has a overwhelming turnaround. I'm suggesting that progression is inevitable, and a lot of people are putting up hateful opinions that are sure to haunt them years down the road...

I feel like those pics of people supporting chic-fil-a few years ago are going to be the cause of embarrassment for more than a few people 15 - 20 years from now.

"Mom, I found this picture of you at an anti-gay marriage rally years ago".

"Oh haha, er......sweety, it was a different time....I....well, lots of people felt the same way....so it wasn't just me.....but yeah, that definitely wasn't great, not proud of that one".

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Both. I do feel a slippery slope on a personal level, but I also think that if you are pro-gay marriage than any marriage should be acceptable (willing partners).

I've heard this argument before and always wondered why it takes same sex marriage to begin the slippery slope. If a man and a woman can marry why not sister/brother, crazy person/goat, polygamists etc? If you can set limits after man/woman marriage, why not after same sex marriage?

[sa226]

I have no problem with it whatsoever. People should be allowed to be happy.

Though if I'm being completely honest, if I see PDA's or even that sort of thing on TV or a movie, it makes me uncomfortable. Why? I don't know. Maybe just because I'm not used to it. Maybe it's a conditioning thing. But I can't sit here and pretend that it doesn't.

Perhaps like anything it just takes time.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Both. I do feel a slippery slope on a personal level, but I also think that if you are pro-gay marriage than any marriage should be acceptable (willing partners).

To what extent, though. If a 35 year old male and a 12 year old female express willingness to engage in marriage and sex, would that still be OK? Given all we know about the psychological development of human beings, it can't truly be said that the 12 year old is capable of critical thinking skills enabling that kind of union, responsibility, and commitment.

On a different note, I've noticed a lot of rhetoric emerging on places like Facebook where Christian opponents are trying to deflect the issue by somehow attempting to turn themselves into victims. Things like "straight pride" and messages calling out pro-activists for being bullies and oppressors, criticizing them for having an alternative opinion. This is a terrible stance to make, especially now.

It's so frustrating constantly attempting to hold my tongue and not respond to such ridiculous arguments. Anyone else noticing this kind of rubbish?

[Acey]

As somebody who somewhat dislikes the concept of marriage period, if I was gay I wouldn't even care about this decision. In half of states right now you can be fired for being gay and have no legal recourse... and you can be denied rent because your landlord doesn't like gay people. This is an infinitely larger problem than not being able to marry. It's not like Loving v. Virginia where an interracial couple were thrown in jail.

All this rainbow garbage I'm seeing across the internet thinking this has all been wrapped in a bow when, as far as gays who don't care about marriage are concerned, nothing has changed.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

And let's say 6 people came together and said who are you to say that only 2 people should be allowed to get married. Let the flaming begin (no pun intended).

I can't be the only one who is actually for this, am I? I fail to see what the big deal it. It's been dragged through the mud because of correlation to cults and groups that have abused the idea but if a guy loves a handful of women and they love him and like the set up, more power to them. Ditto if the sexes are versed, or same'd. It shouldn't be about control, abuse, power but no marriage should be. Marry a buttload of people, go on!

Brother-Sister marriage is a little different. Is this a thing, are there millions of brothers and sisters lining up to get married and will be pounding on the doors of the legislature to get their papers signed the day it's legal? Or just a slippery slope argument?

We have to be reasonable and bring up things that actually happen with some consistency. Talk about gay marriage, not about sibling marriage or guy marrying his horse marriage.

Like a confused teenage MCRBiogy slippery slopes go both ways. If they take away gay marriage, will they come for us regular normies too?

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Acey

That's essentially the stance of the dissenting opinion in the SCOTUS decision - where do you draw the line. It makes sense, but I still don't care if a brother and sister got married.

Does it make sense though? The arguments people put forth (about drawing some kind of line in the sand) are the same straw man fallacies that were trotted out to try to prevent interracial marriages 50 years ago.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Well, as to incestuous couplings, there are certainly health risks associated with reproducing. It genuinely seems poor for the gene pool, and that kind of risk can actually supersede social constructions. I have heard some very smart people discuss the widespread 'ickyness' factor as being a result of genetic discouragement towards the practice.

That's very true, but I was referring to situations where there is no reproducing, 2 brothers, 2 sisters, etc