NHL Free Agent Frenzy July 1st.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Engelland was a reliable guy, and I don't think 3x3 is a bad decision. Examine the facts:

1. Barely a cap floor team at the time
2. Very sparse defensive prospects close to being NHL ready
3. A very public rebuild, which usually means it's hard to attract UFA NHL caliber players.

I think the way they handled the rebuild was excellent. Hire NHL guys to hold down spots, and let youngsters compete for them. I think signing Potter was great; even if it was just to remind the young guys that they won't be given anything if not earned.


Having said that, Flames are in a different spot this year. I'd love to have Schlemko back to keep the bottom pair warm until someone (wotherspoon?) can take over. The demand for Schelmko won't be huge, so you can easily sign him to 2x2 or similar.

3x3 wasn't a bad decision in hind sight. You should go look up all the articles when we first signed it. Many thought he was getting 3 million total, not 3x3. It was heavily criticized while the Hiller and Raymond's contracts praised as being great deals and signings.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...193439817.html
http://www.rantsports.com/nhl/2014/0...agency-so-far/

Now in hindsight, Eggs is the good contract, Raymond's the dumb one.

I've always liked the idea of signing Eggs. I wasn't a huge fan of the pay though, but he earned every cent of the first year which is amazing in its own right.

[kermitology]

I'm going to laugh at whoever signs Beleskey. Watching him in the Flames series, he always struck me as looking kind of fat, lazy and out of breath.

He's a buyout waiting to happen.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Unlike the Dubnyk skeptics, I think Dubnyk/Ortio will end up being one of the top tandems in the NHL like Lundqvist/Talbot. The only issue I see with it is that the Flames might win too many games on strong goaltending and compromise their draft position before having the Forwards or defense core to be a bonafide contender (Like what's happened with Montreal, Columbus, New York and Colorado). It's a double-edged sword to have strong goaltending before you're ready for it.

Phooey. Not on this message board bud.

[codynw]

Cheerio is going to look pretty ridiculous when Schlemko gets a one year contract worth less than $1.5M.

"borderline top pairing" according to some fancy stats.

LOL

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

3x3 wasn't a bad decision in hind sight.

We'll have to disagree on that, the deal looked bad when it was signed and it still looks bad today in hindsight.

With regards to Schlemko, he did look good when he played... but the minutes he played were soft minutes... good ground vs. weak comp. If he could do what he did starting vs. better talent in tougher ground then he'd be worth giving a 3x3 deal to... but not without some evidence that he can do that on a nightly basis.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Cheerio

That is an interesting take on why Engelland was rightly or wrongly paid 3MM a year. Ice time isn't a fair evualator for comparing the two players though, because as we saw all year, Hartley preferred to give ice time to the players who had spent the year in his system (see Drew Shore).

You sure interpreted my post funny. I am saying Engelland is a more flexible player capable of playing far more roles than Schlemko. I wasn't justifying Engelland's pay. I was saying he is a player capable of multiple hats unlike what Schlemko is showing. I was also essentially saying that because he doesn't wear multiple hats, he doesn't deserve an overpayment like Engelland. I am NOT justifying Engelland's pay. In fact, that is the exact basis of why I am saying Schlemko does NOT deserve a 3x3.

But if you solely read the part that said "Capfloor?" and took that as the gist of my post...

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Phooey. Not on this message board bud.

I'm not talking about tanking. I'm just talking about winning the division or president's trophy and then getting bounced in the first round by a better-constructed team like LA or Anaheim, and then ending up with the 25th OA. That'd be a tough season to swallow - we're a team trying to build through the draft with some legitimate holes.

Either way, I'm strongly in favor of bringing in Dubnyk.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Parallex

We'll have to disagree on that, the deal looked bad when it was signed and it still looks bad today in hindsight.

Come on dude. 3x3 for a capable NHL defenseman. He's not top pairing, but he's no slouch, and he's tough as nails.

It is not a bad contract at all and it could be traded tomorrow if needed.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Parallex

We'll have to disagree on that, the deal looked bad when it was signed and it still looks bad today in hindsight.

Fair enough. My mistake in wording as I followed the previous post's wording. I actually meant that it isn't as hard to swallow than it was when the signing first took place.

It's still bad.

But at least I would argue he earned the first year pay cheque. He likely won't "earn" years 2 and 3 like he did this year.

[codynw]

Engelland's contract was worth it for this alone.

[Toonage]

He beat the snot out of two Canucks at once. He earned his entire contract right there.

Beaten! And with that great pic no less. Kudos!

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by Cheerio

That is an interesting take on why Engelland was rightly or wrongly paid 3MM a year. Ice time isn't a fair evualator for comparing the two players though, because as we saw all year, Hartley preferred to give ice time to the players who had spent the year in his system (see Drew Shore).


He is a good 5, look at his possession numbers, they're borderline top pair according to his HERO chart. Look at his and Engelland's WOWY (with or without you). Schlemko made his line mates better, Engelland made them worse, most notably TJ Brodie whose possession numbers dropped by more than 10% when he was playing with Engelland. Corsi isn't the be all end all stat but it shows possession better than anything else. In my opinion Schlemko was a much better player just by watching as well due to his great 1st pass ability. Why do believe Engelland is so much better? Schlemko seems gritty and like he has intangibles as well.

While you're saying that statistical numbers aren't the end all be all, placing Schlemko as a #5 guy using the basis of those possession numbers shows the opposite.
Backlund is one of our best possession drivers yet didn't reach the 4M cap hit some reporters in the media estimated he would based on that attribute. That's because despite his overall fantastic play, he hadn't produced consistently enough (mostly on PP) to warranty payment beyond that.

With Schlemko in 44 games, 4 points as a #7 show little confidence. It's one thing to be carrying those intangibles like an Engelland who could potentially the pine when not needed but being waived by multiple teams show that his value isn't quite there. Sure he got picked up twice because teams wanted him but they wanted the #7 defenseman, not a borderline #4 contract .
Schlemko's possession numbers come as a result of reduced ice team, against weaker competition. If those possession numbers were so valuable to the point of suggestion even a 3M per year contract, Hartley certainly didn't immediately put his value that way. He had the likes of Wideman, Brodie and Russell double shifting when Giordano went down, with Engelland stepping up to the plate.

Schlemko and his 'borderline top pairing possession' numbers didn't exactly get called on a whole lot when the team needed more from the entire defense.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Come on dude. 3x3 for a capable NHL defenseman.

3x3 is a fair price for a capable NHL defenseman... I just don't think he's a very capable NHL defenseman. There are zero quantifiable measures that demonstrates that he is such.

Of all the guys that played a decent number of games for the Flames last year at defense the only one I'd say he outperformed was Smid.

[CroFlames]

Well then we disagree on his capabilities then. I think he had a rough start, but turned around after maybe game 30, and especially stepped it up when Gio went down.

Flames have an extremely adequate top 4, and granted Engo is not one of them, he is still a good, NHL capable defender. My opinion.

[Cheerio]

Originally Posted by codynw

Cheerio is going to look pretty ridiculous when Schlemko gets a one year contract worth less than $1.5M.

"borderline top pairing" according to some fancy stats.

LOL

Okay well instead of laughing at me and repeatedly telling me that I'm wrong and dumb, why don't you give me a counter argument about why he deserves a pay cut. I'll be waiting.

[Toonage]

I went for lunch, came back and you're still at it. Instead of challenging people, why not just drop it? Lets move on.

[Cheerio]

Originally Posted by Toonage

I went for lunch, came back and you're still at it. Instead of challenging people, why not just drop it? Lets move on.

Tried that one before and it just leads to the same posters circling back around calling me a troll for not responding

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Cheerio

Okay well instead of laughing at me and repeatedly telling me that I'm wrong and dumb, why don't you give me a counter argument about why he deserves a pay cut. I'll be waiting.

A pay cut?

Under 1.5/year would be inline with what he made the previous two seasons.

[dammage79]

There's better D men the Flames can get for 3x3. In trade or in the UFA market.

[Cheerio]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

A pay cut?

Under 1.5/year would be inline with what he made the previous two seasons.

Yes, but when he signed that contract the cap was lower, also he said a 1 year deal which would be a pay cut on the 3 year deal I believe he had. He's not gonna take a 1 year deal regardless so it's irrelevant.