Craig Button Pyramid (Team Construction)

[GranteedEV]

it's kinda cool how it was Bob Hartley who turned Savard around...

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Just saw this on TSN, interesting.

Pyramid of how to build a team. Put up the blue print then he looked at the Kings then the Leafs.

Called it the 3-2-1-2-1 pyramid

From bottom to top:

3 D (have to all be top 4)
2 C
1 G
2 F
1 D

Had the Kings at:

Doughty Voynov Muzzin
Kopitar Carter
Quick
Toffoli Williams
Martinez

Then pointed out the Leafs and their issues missing 2 of 4 D, iffy at center, good on the wing, iffy in net.

So the Flames? What's their pyramid?

Giordano Brodie Russell
Backlund Monahan
Hiller
Hudler Gaudreau
Wideman

I see the weakest links at Hiller and Wideman

Like the fact that Bennett is coming in as well.

Thoughts?

Sadly, if you compare the Flames to any of the top 4 Western Conference teams plus the Kings, the 3-2-1-2-1 format for the Flames is a bit depressing. All the players you've listed are half the size of what the Kings have!

[jayswin]

This pyramid theory sounds a lot more like "The best teams are very strong at every position and then fill out the bottom spots with whatever fits under the cap".

[drewtastic]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I see the weakest links at Hiller and Wideman

Thoughts?

Agreed.

Wideman is frustrating because he can be both brilliant and mediocre in the same game. Decent 4/5 though.

Hiller's "puck-blocking style" is annoying (compared to a puck-absorbing style) and, as the game against the Ducks showed, not exactly confidence-inspiring for a developing team. He's also not super-agile, either as a result of his height, or his seemingly ever-rigid pads.

I see these as things Treliving is aware of, and working to improve. It's easy to forget that this rebuild is still a longer-term project. They're on a good course and there's an actual legit foundation again. But damn if it ain't hard to want this group to make the playoffs and have success RIGHT NOW!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

And yet he ran our future #1 centre out of town for nothing. Great execution of his philosophy there.

Marc Savard ran himself out of town...lets not re-write history here.

[Flashpoint]

So he's saying good teams have good players in every position

...shocker...

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Marc Savard ran himself out of town...lets not re-write history here.

Marc Savard and Greg Gilbert were both behaving like certified grade-A asshats, and did their best to run each other out of town. One or the other had to go. Button made the wrong choice by shipping out Savard. We know it was the wrong choice because he had to fire Gilbert anyway, less than three weeks later.

It's possible that both had to go. But it's pretty clear that Button got rid of the wrong one first, and it's dead obvious that he got zero return for a player who should have been a valuable asset.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

It's possible that both had to go. But it's pretty clear that Button got rid of the wrong one first, and it's dead obvious that he got zero return for a player who should have been a valuable asset.

Disagree

I didn't like Gilbert so no argument there. But any player that quits on a team and tries to get a coach fired needs to move at any cost.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But any player that quits on a team and tries to get a coach fired needs to move at any cost.

So, a GM has no obligation to try to get any return for the assets in a trade? Whether you realize it or not, that is what ‘at any cost’ means.

Meanwhile, what do you make of the 1990 Flames? The entire team bailed on Terry Crisp at the end of the season. According to reports at the time, the ringleaders, McCrimmon and Mullen, were indeed traded – but Cliff Fletcher didn't just trade them for minor-league Russians that had no chance of ever making the NHL; he made a bona fide effort to get assets in return. Was that wrong? And if any player who quits on the team needs to move at any cost, doesn't that mean that the entire team should have been shipped out, without any consideration of what was coming back in the deals?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

So, a GM has no obligation to try to get any return for the assets in a trade? Whether you realize it or not, that is what ‘at any cost’ means.

Meanwhile, what do you make of the 1990 Flames? The entire team bailed on Terry Crisp at the end of the season. According to reports at the time, the ringleaders, McCrimmon and Mullen, were indeed traded – but Cliff Fletcher didn't just trade them for minor-league Russians that had no chance of ever making the NHL; he made a bona fide effort to get assets in return. Was that wrong? And if any player who quits on the team needs to move at any cost, doesn't that mean that the entire team should have been shipped out, without any consideration of what was coming back in the deals?

I agree with those who said Savard was acting like a baby and refused to play the game with any defensive responsibility. It was probably the main reason the Flames couldn't keep up their winning ways. They had gotten off to a great start and IIRC played well while Savard was injured. Something had to be done about Savard but I agree with you that Button didn't handle it properly and I blame him for not getting anything in return. That was a head shaker and one of the reasons I was glad when Button was gone.

[dissentowner]

Gilbert was a tool and didn't even try with Savard. The talent was obvious and instead of working with the player the Flames threw away the #1 centre they needed for nothing. Funny how all those issues went away once he was moved on away from Gilbert. Between Button and Gilbert those two fools cost the Flames huge. There is a reason why neither has had a sniff in the NHL again. Imagine what Iggy's production would have been like with Savard as his centre.

[Da_Chief]

Should, woulda, coulda...if Savard stays maybe the magical 04 run doesn't happen. We don't suck as bad or suck even more, maybe no Monahan etc.

Button tried but his hand were tied. Gilbert flat out sucked, only good thing he ever did was to start/continue that Ducks brawl. Savard was a baby here, he matured once he left.

[Pointman]

Savard was very good for the Flames before they hired Gilbert, was not he?

Nevermind Savard, Button also let St.Louis go, traded away Giguere and Kuba. Picked Nystrom at 10th overall. Kinda beating the dead horse, but Button was horrible GM.

Basically, Button failed to realize, how talented that Coates team was. Good thing now we have Treliving, who seems to be aware of the potential of Feaster's team.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Should, woulda, coulda...if Savard stays maybe the magical 04 run doesn't happen. We don't suck as bad or suck even more, maybe no Monahan etc.

Button tried but his hand were tied. Gilbert flat out sucked, only good thing he ever did was to start/continue that Ducks brawl. Savard was a baby here, he matured once he left.

He was never an issue in the AHL and he was never an issue after he got away from Gilbert. Savard was putting up points and being an offensive player and Gilbert benched him, I don't blame Savard one bit for being angry at the way he was mismanaged.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

He was never an issue in the AHL and he was never an issue after he got away from Gilbert. Savard was putting up points and being an offensive player and Gilbert benched him, I don't blame Savard one bit for being angry at the way he was mismanaged.

All this talk about that whole era in Flames history makes me sad.
Again.
Please stop.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

So, a GM has no obligation to try to get any return for the assets in a trade? Whether you realize it or not, that is what ‘at any cost’ means.

Meanwhile, what do you make of the 1990 Flames? The entire team bailed on Terry Crisp at the end of the season. According to reports at the time, the ringleaders, McCrimmon and Mullen, were indeed traded – but Cliff Fletcher didn't just trade them for minor-league Russians that had no chance of ever making the NHL; he made a bona fide effort to get assets in return. Was that wrong? And if any player who quits on the team needs to move at any cost, doesn't that mean that the entire team should have been shipped out, without any consideration of what was coming back in the deals?

Just so we're clear are you thinking he purposely avoided getting a return? Clearly the market wasn't that strong for a small, out of shape, dressing room killer or he would have taken a better offer.

This wasn't Evander Kane at the time he wasn't lighting it up in Calgary. He's lost his job to Conroy and was essentially a third line center on the way down.

[Sylvanfan]

Yeah, but Button held a malcontent player for a calender year. He first wanted a move in 01 and was traded well into the 02 season.

Pause Button.. couldn't make a decision. He's far better off in the media where he doesn't need to be accountable for what he says or does. At best he was a sub mediocre GM. Than again the Uber cheap Flames of those days were getting what they paid for.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Savard was very good for the Flames before they hired Gilbert, was not he?

Nevermind Savard, Button also let St.Louis go, traded away Giguere and Kuba. Picked Nystrom at 10th overall. Kinda beating the dead horse, but Button was horrible GM.

Basically, Button failed to realize, how talented that Coates team was. Good thing now we have Treliving, who seems to be aware of the potential of Feaster's team.

I hate how much flack Button gets for St Louis. He was a 25 year old AHLer that was having trouble translating the game to the NHL level. He was Paul Byron, but Paul put up better numbers last year than St Louis did in his first full NHL year.

It even took 3 more years in the Tampa system before he broke out, and Tampa had Prospal, Lecav and Richards dominating the center position so he was able to take advantage of playing with that. In hindsight poor move, but if the Flames let Byron go for nothing this summer there wouldn't be too much uproar.

Savard was a different story, and Giguire was another product of an ownership group needing to get butts in the seats before the team was moved. If I remember correctly (and someone feel free to correct me) but the Flames had too many goaltenders to protect for the expansion draft, so it was either lose an NHL goaltender because Giguire was not ready for prime time and the flames couldn't afford to wait. And instead of losing Giguire for nothing Button got a second for him. Seems like prudent asset management for an average AHL goaltender with some upside.

I think Button wasn't the best GM, but 15 years of hindsight makes things look a lot worse than they were at the time. He made the moves he needed to in order to keep the team floating and in Calgary long enough.

As for drafting Nystom, really every GM I can remember in Calgary has had bust picks, so really nothing to see here.

The move I remember hating the most in that time (I think it may have been Coates) was Stillman for Conroy. Top 6 winger for bottom 6 center made absolutely no sense. But I never even cared about losing some 25 year old midget AHL tweener.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Who told you that?

Don't think King ever liked Button. Craig was hired before King and it was obvious King never viewed him as "his" guy. Soon after Sutter was hired as coach it became apparent Button was going to be shown the door. Doubt if King trusted him with much.

The simple fact that King was making those types of hockey decisions shows you how far the Flames have come. Now we actually have hockey minds making the hockey decisions.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Savard was very good for the Flames before they hired Gilbert, was not he?

Nevermind Savard, Button also let St.Louis go, traded away Giguere and Kuba. Picked Nystrom at 10th overall. Kinda beating the dead horse, but Button was horrible GM.

Basically, Button failed to realize, how talented that Coates team was. Good thing now we have Treliving, who seems to be aware of the potential of Feaster's team.

Oh let's not get too crazy here. Keep in mind button inherited a team that was a complete joke and had been mismanaged into oblivion for the better part of a decade. He obviously played a part in what happened in 2004 under Sutter, which is more than can be said of his predecessors.