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Old 02-11-2015, 02:13 PM   #961
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You can't eradicate a group that has popular support due to sectarian divisions. The Sunni areas in Iraq and Syria have pushed out the government because it favored the Shia and gave them no voice. The only way to defeat ISIS is to remove their support from the Sunni tribes through political reconciliation. There was a good program on ISIS on CBC that basically surmised that the group took territory so quickly because they were welcomed by disenfranchised Sunnis that were treated like crap by Maliki's government in Iraq.
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Old 02-11-2015, 02:29 PM   #962
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I seem to recall that ISIS had published a bombed out building that she was supposed to be held in, and Jordan came back and said, nobody bombed that building.

the execution by burning of the Jordanian was the first mis-step in what was a pretty successful public relations campaign. Sure ISIS will still be able to recruit the stupid, the angry and the ill-informed, however they had just managed to get the UAE to halt their campaign, and signs of cracks were showing in the coalition, and the operational tempo of the air strikes was sharply dropping. Now its increased basically 10 fold, and there's a good chance that Jordan will eventually put a heavy formation on the ground that ISIS won't be able to combat.

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Couldn't agree more about this.

Jordan would have wanted to stay out of things for fear of mobilizing extremist and religious elements in their own population. That video was so barbaric, ISIS lost a lot of Jordanian sympathizers.

I see Jordan now taking the opportunity to liberate a part if Iraq and reassert Hashemite rule. That liberated part of Iraq will probably include an oil field.
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:04 PM   #963
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I guess that depends on the goalposts, the iraqi army disintegrated in meer days yet the US never "won"
the U.S. thought that Iraq would be like Japan post WW2. They'd go in, kick the crap out of the army, shoot Saddam in the head to the sounds of "Rock you like a Hurricane" by the Scorpions. Install a new government, democracy would break out and MacDonald franchises for all. they had no end war strategy in terms of working with the population there. Instead they pretty much wandered around, kicked over some buildings and installed a government that they hadn't thought about very much.

If the American's and their allies, dropped some heavy formations in, lavishly sprinkled it with air power, and really put some effort into intelligence gathering and targeting. I would be probably 6 months, especially if they went after the leaders. There would be heavy casualties.

But they would face another insurgence battle.

Most of these ISIS mutts, aren't soldiers, they're poorly trained, but make up for it with a fear of failure due to beheadings, and a limitless supply of hatred and psychopathic tendencies. ISIS leadership is smart, they would actually love to have the American's on the ground so they could make them bleed.
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:16 PM   #964
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the U.S. thought that Iraq would be like Japan post WW2. They'd go in, kick the crap out of the army, shoot Saddam in the head to the sounds of "Rock you like a Hurricane" by the Scorpions. Install a new government, democracy would break out and MacDonald franchises for all. they had no end war strategy in terms of working with the population there. Instead they pretty much wandered around, kicked over some buildings and installed a government that they hadn't thought about very much.

If the American's and their allies, dropped some heavy formations in, lavishly sprinkled it with air power, and really put some effort into intelligence gathering and targeting. I would be probably 6 months, especially if they went after the leaders. There would be heavy casualties.

But they would face another insurgence battle.

Most of these ISIS mutts, aren't soldiers, they're poorly trained, but make up for it with a fear of failure due to beheadings, and a limitless supply of hatred and psychopathic tendencies. ISIS leadership is smart, they would actually love to have the American's on the ground so they could make them bleed.
There is a good documentary on Netflix from Frontline called losing iraq that describes this in really good detail.
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:47 PM   #965
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I guess that depends on the goalposts, the iraqi army disintegrated in meer days yet the US never "won"
Yeah really. I wonder how many former soldiers with the Iraqi army that put on their civies and went home when the U.S invaded Iraq, ended up joining the ISIS cause.
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:52 PM   #966
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Yeah really. I wonder how many former soldiers with the Iraqi army that put on their civies and went home when the U.S invaded Iraq, ended up joining the ISIS cause.
Well because the American's basically disbanded the Iraqi army, pretty much all of them ended up fighting for the Al Qaeda front in Iraq, not because they were true believers, but because they got a paycheck.

The biggest American mistake when they won the war was discharging most of the Iraqi soldiers in a move to reform an army that wasn't professional or particularly admired by their own country. The good news was they replaced then with an army that wasn't particularly professional or admired within their own country. So kudos.
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Old 02-11-2015, 06:52 PM   #967
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the U.S. thought that Iraq would be like Japan post WW2. They'd go in, kick the crap out of the army, shoot Saddam in the head to the sounds of "Rock you like a Hurricane" by the Scorpions. Install a new government, democracy would break out and MacDonald franchises for all. they had no end war strategy in terms of working with the population there. Instead they pretty much wandered around, kicked over some buildings and installed a government that they hadn't thought about very much.

If the American's and their allies, dropped some heavy formations in, lavishly sprinkled it with air power, and really put some effort into intelligence gathering and targeting. I would be probably 6 months, especially if they went after the leaders. There would be heavy casualties.

But they would face another insurgence battle.

Most of these ISIS mutts, aren't soldiers, they're poorly trained, but make up for it with a fear of failure due to beheadings, and a limitless supply of hatred and psychopathic tendencies. ISIS leadership is smart, they would actually love to have the American's on the ground so they could make them bleed.
They never thought about the whole invasion very much and it was doomed from the start. The only thing holding the country together was Saddam and it was predicted that it would devolve into civil war once Saddam was gone. The US was being led by war profiteering idiots who should be charged with war crimes.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:53 PM   #968
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The biggest reason the US screwed up Iraq so bad was because they refused to work with Saddam's people after he was toppled. That lead to sectarian violence and a government in shambles.

Things would have gone much smoother if they would have kept the guys in power, in power and worked from there.

Of course, just lead Saddam in charge and the same thing probably happens.
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Old 02-15-2015, 10:57 AM   #969
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American involvement has stepped up and they are now using Apaches for ground attack on top of the usual airstrikes and naval air support.

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American helicopters engaged Islamic State group fighters in Iraq on Friday, according to CNN’s Chief National Security Correspondent Jim Sciutto. The deployment of helicopter gunships comes days after U.S. President Barack Obama submitted a request to Congress for authorization to wage war against the Islamic State group, also known as ISIS.

Helicopter gunships engaged fighters in al-Baghdadi, an area almost completely controlled by ISIS. The U.S. has led a coalition of Western and Arab nations to conduct airstrikes against the Islamic State group in Iraq since June 2014 and in Syria since September 2014 as part of Operation Inherent Resolve. Those airstrikes have consisted of long-range bombing and missile strikes from fixed-wing aircraft. Helicopter operations would require pilots to fly much closer to the combat area.
http://www.ibtimes.com/us-apache-hel...report-1816402
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Old 02-15-2015, 11:00 AM   #970
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There is a good documentary on Netflix from Frontline called losing iraq that describes this in really good detail.
Hopefully not a duplicate but good doc on CBC Passionate Eye on Rise of ISIS.
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Old 02-15-2015, 10:35 PM   #971
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ISIS behead coptic christians in Libya. English speaking ISIS member on video with threat to Coptic Christians and Rome.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/15/middle...ans/index.html
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Old 02-15-2015, 11:50 PM   #972
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There are two types of walking dead

The TV series and ISIS
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Old 02-16-2015, 09:59 AM   #973
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Anyone that thinks that ISIS can be dealt with in a non violent way is fooling themselves. This is an army of psychopathic thrill killers and monsters that need to die enmasse.

If it ever comes down to moving troops in the war that is fought has to be a war of complete eradication.

Its a group of concentrated hate and ignorance.
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Old 02-16-2015, 10:23 AM   #974
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Because the west was really successful at eradicating al Qaeda and the Taliban? They are fighting ideas, and seemingly endless numbers of people willing to fight for them.
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Old 02-16-2015, 10:31 AM   #975
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You make it unprofitable to fight it, and you make their ideas of martyrdom worthless.

To effectively fight a group like ISIS you need to go hard after their leaders, and make the group stupid and mistake prone, and make the leadership look like something that people don't want to follow.

At the same time you go hard after their recruiters and funders wherever they are.

When the American's first went after Al Queda they stumbled on an effective strategy, or putting them on the run and making them a reactionary group. You chase them to the ends of the earth and make them so concerned about survival that they can't do anything else.

The American's failed at that strategy because they got complacent about it and let Al Qaeda off of the mat.

If you want to look at the effective destruction of a terrorist group, look at the multi faceted approach to the destruction of the Tamil Tigers.

They were destroyed by a combination of military, economic, psychological warfare and a enhanced propaganda effort.

With ISIS you can't let it fester and inspire the crazies of the world or it will grow and become more aggressive. You can't sit back and hope puppy thoughts will make them go away. You can't hope that the people that are effectively their civilian base and hostages will rise up in the face of brutality and weaken ISIS.
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Old 02-16-2015, 02:55 PM   #976
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Anyone that thinks that ISIS can be dealt with in a non violent way is fooling themselves. This is an army of psychopathic thrill killers and monsters that need to die enmasse.

If it ever comes down to moving troops in the war that is fought has to be a war of complete eradication.

Its a group of concentrated hate and ignorance.
I get what you're saying, Captain, but the problem I think is that their recruiting seems to be going up since the strikes started. Even today with Egypt striking them and in the process killing some civilians, they will use that as fuel. I sometimes wonder if a better strategy would have been to let them get really settled in, would they have been as attractive if no one was bombing them? Would they have expanded a bit more? yes. But with added expansion and more civilians to provide services to, I think they would have reached a point where you have to get down and govern. And if then they still would have continued their atrocities, you would have more valuable targets to strike in their infrastructure.
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:16 PM   #977
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To me it looks like they are committing these atrocities in order to draw the West into a ground war. I imagine it is to try and unite the Muslims against the West.
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:26 PM   #978
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To me it looks like they are committing these atrocities in order to draw the West into a ground war. I imagine it is to try and unite the Muslims against the West.
They're committing these atrocities to give them a psychological edge as well. Your average poorly trained middle eastern soldier doesn't want to fight because if they're captured they might get beheaded or burned or nailed to a board.

They commit these atrocities because it makes it easier to recruit every psychopath with murder fantasies who's a loser in life who dreams about raping little boys or girls in the name of god, and every loser that needs someone else to tell them what their religion means, and that its the easy answer to the fact that they're a failure in life.

They know that the Western powers don't want to fight a ground war, it emboldens them, they can weather air strikes.
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:32 PM   #979
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I get what you're saying, Captain, but the problem I think is that their recruiting seems to be going up since the strikes started. Even today with Egypt striking them and in the process killing some civilians, they will use that as fuel. I sometimes wonder if a better strategy would have been to let them get really settled in, would they have been as attractive if no one was bombing them? Would they have expanded a bit more? yes. But with added expansion and more civilians to provide services to, I think they would have reached a point where you have to get down and govern. And if then they still would have continued their atrocities, you would have more valuable targets to strike in their infrastructure.
If you let them settle in, their idea of governing is to hideously murder anyone that doesn't share their twisted vision of an Islamic State. If you let them establish it becomes a beacon of success for every loser looking for a cause, and if you let them settle in they will continue to spread their hate filled ideology and recruit and export trained terrorists.

Personally the only reason why you call off the air strikes and let them establish their hideous form of government and their slave state is so that you can contain them and then nuke them to ashes, and before anyone jumps on me, that's not the solution, and I don't advocate nuking anyone.

I advocate using special forces to kill everyone flying that flag and leading those people. I advocate for assassinations of their leadership. I advocate finding their sources of funding and killing those. Air strikes won't knock ISIS off balance, it will harden their resolve. Sure it looks good in Western papers and we can preach that we're doing something. But to ISIS its a weak response and an encouraging sign that eventually the West will accept their poison and their rule, and that will be the ultimate sign of victory for them and the ultimate recruiting poster.
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Old 02-16-2015, 04:12 PM   #980
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They're committing these atrocities to give them a psychological edge as well. Your average poorly trained middle eastern soldier doesn't want to fight because if they're captured they might get beheaded or burned or nailed to a board.

They commit these atrocities because it makes it easier to recruit every psychopath with murder fantasies who's a loser in life who dreams about raping little boys or girls in the name of god, and every loser that needs someone else to tell them what their religion means, and that its the easy answer to the fact that they're a failure in life.

They know that the Western powers don't want to fight a ground war, it emboldens them, they can weather air strikes.
I don't buy that these recruits are psychopaths, at least not to begin with. Most of them come off as pretty ordinary youths, rebellious, but easily led while looking for some meaning in their lives. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any sympathy for them once they've crossed that line but to brand the recruits as psychopaths, is a bit much.
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